thehammer69

iTrader: (2)

Avoided? I already answered that before that question was ever asked.

Hammer

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

Who cares? He ordered one thing and got something different instead. Had he not ordered the cam card for $50(which most people do not) with it, it would be off 2 degrees from whatever he thought it was.

formulakid1

I care.
We are talking about being perfect in every lil' detail.....and to do so requires a certin amount of checking(as he did with the adcole) now he needs to check the rest of the combo.

BigDaddyBry

iTrader: (15)

Six sigma FTW.

formulakid1

Didn't say he didn't.
And it looks like Comp is fixing the prob.
And why not care......if we are talking about the details.....let's talk about the details.

Would you even think of installing a cam w/o degreeing it in?


all never mind....I know what you'll say........who cares.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

LOL, once again, he ordered one thing and got something else. Whether or not he was gonna degree it is not relevant. The details dont matter, what matters is he didnt get what he paid for.

yeah thats great comp is fixing it, mistakes happen sometimes, no biggie.

N4cer

iTrader: (11)

If he already has the advance that he wants ground in, and the cam comes back on spec, there'd be no need to. That's one of those things that the internet wannabe gurus will push as gospel when the truth is even a shop will go dot to dot if the cam is ground properly.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

if I ordered a 112 LSA + 0 and I was sent a 112 + 2 cam i would be pissed, especially if they expected me to go buy an adjustbale timing set and degree wheel just to accomadate their mistake in grinding it, which is what a few of you think he should just do.

I dont think the internet gurus know what the price of degree tools are as well as an adjustable timing set. If I spec a cam out you best believe there is gonna be no degreeing involved in it, its gonna have everything I need ground into it so i can just install it dot to dot and be done.

csmc711

iTrader: (4)

Not picking on you, but, now you have me confused, since you played with degreeing so much. From those two paragraphs, is it important, in your opinion, to degree or not as you have said both?????

N4cer

iTrader: (11)

Looks like "Degree it no matter what, because it's a good thing and it makes no significant difference."

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

Yeah sounds like some John Kerry flip-flopping to me. On one hand I am hearing "its no big deal if its off 2 degress, you wont notice it anyway, carbon buildup can make that difference up" , then on the other hand we hear "you need to degree it anyway to make sure it is dead on what you want it to be" Which is it then? Is the degreeing important or not?

It is a big deal because a degree set is over $100 and an adjustable timing set is $150, thats at least $250 in **** you wouldnt need if they had just ground the cam right in the first place. I cant believe people are defending a jacked up product, if its wrong its wrong, they can just take it back and fix it. Im sure Comp doesnt need internet technicians out here defending their products even when they **** up. They are gonna fix it no questions asked and thats enough to make them a legit company, they stood by the product and admitted a mistake and then offered to fix it promptly.

If I ever buy another cam it will be from thunder if they include a cam card from the cam doctor, thats quality service right there.

csmc711

iTrader: (4)

Well, I know, or have a real good idea what the answer should be, but, I just wanted to get some others perspectives. Degreeing is for no cam doctor whatever the hell it is read out but you should degree all the others cause you never know, even if it has a "cam card". Heck, with my luck, my cam "doctor" card would be wrong also!!

zipdog

You guys are funny as hell. Back and forth about degreeing a cam. It shows who the internet rookies are.

KrisR

iTrader: (2)

We've established that Comp sent him a cam with the wrong advance. They agreed, and are sending him a new one.

I know that everyone expects to get exactly what they ask for, but isn't cam selection all pretty much an educated guess anyway? Who's to say that it wouldn't have performed better with a +4 than a +2 (for example) on that particular engine with those particular lifters and that much carbon on the piston tops and that tank of gas and blah blah blah.

I certainly don't want to seem like I know what I'm doing; the process of custom cam spec selection is very interesting to me, although it seems there are always several sometimes very different opinions on what would work 'best' in any application.

Hopefully you'll get your cam specced correctly to what you think it should be, and it works well for you. Best of luck, and have fun with the project.

One thing to consider, Hammer, (and you probably already have) is the relatively wide ratios in the Z06 trans; I know the car is light relative to a CTS-V, but shifting at 6500rpm will still drop you down to 4500rpm (versus closer to 5000rpm with the 'normal' C5/Fbody gearing), so make sure the torque peak is close to 4500rpm or so, unless you plan on shifting it higher. My cam designer made me a cam with this in mind, and it peaked right at 4500rpm so it would pull 4th gear nice at the top of the track.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

Do you have some good input or do you too just have "internet rookie" comments? It is funny when people jump in a thread and make a "internet racer, Internet rookie" comment or something like that without any tech to go along with it since the comment itself is nothing more than "internet knowledge"

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

You try telling that statement to an expert can designer or even some of the more cam knowledgable members here, see what they think of that. Educated guess, lol

I guess ill take an educated guess on milling my heads and just mill them .060, that sounds good. Forget all the specing I have been working on to get this head/cam setup maximized. Maybe the machinbe shop will mess up and give me .030 and Ill be OK.

KrisR

iTrader: (2)

OK. So these 'experts' (your word) know exactly which cam (lobes, LSA, advance, lift, split, etc) will work for every single engine, with a certain amount of mileage, fuel (Shell brand? Amoco? 92 octane? 93?), head, valvespring, lifter, cam chain, trans ratio, stall, gear, etc.? And who's to say that the cam they design (and I'm guessing that if you have 10 'experts' that aren't buddies design you a cam, you'll get at least 5 very different ideas on what the 'best' one would be) wouldn't be a little better by changing one of the many variables in the design?

I guess my question would be: what would the actual difference in dyno performance be between a cam with 2 degrees of advance and one with 4 degrees? Without testing both of them in an engine on the same day, with the same fuel, same exact coolant/oil/ambient/etc temps, is it really correct to say the one would be better in all ways?

Look.....believe me, I realize that there are probably a million people that know more about this than me, and I envy those that can figure all this out; but it's a little like separating fact from science. I think of a cam designer as a scientist, making the best informed decisions they can. But nothing's concrete here; yeah, maybe the +2 cam (just as an example) might make a little less peak torque (maybe 3-5 ftlbs?) and a couple more peak hp than the +4 cam, but whos to say that the car might go down the track faster anyway with one or the other, or that maybe a +3 would have been an even better choice?

I don't mean to insult anyone here, but nothing's ever perfect, and everything can always be improved somehow. The best cam designers are just a little better at weighing factors than the next guy.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

Experts are not my experts, they are the industry experts, they make the big $$ for a reason. After enough experience doing it you are able to make a precise "estimate" of exactly what works best for your goals, thats just like any profession. A lawyer that has been around a while knows how to get around things to get to his goal, whereas the new law graduate has no idea how to work the system and pull strings.

Yeah the cam jacked up from the manufactuer would be OK, but he paid good $$ for a product that he spec'd out and thats exactly how it should have arrived at his doorstep. Once again a adjustable timing set and degree set will run over $250, would you like to spend that much more because they fucked up grinding your cam? I bet you wouldnt.

And machine work today is supposed to be perfect, the guy thats gonna do my heads can be precise down 1-2 thousandths of an inch, thats damn near perfection.

KrisR

iTrader: (2)

I agree with this. I would be a little irked also, and there's no way I'd spend the extra $250 on stuff to fix a cam that was different than I ordered.

I guess I got off-topic, and I aplogize for that. What I was talking about and asking didn't really have to do with the original situation of an admittedly botched cam order. Maybe I should have started a new thread about this. As I'm fairly new to this, I really did just more or less want to know how much difference a couple degrees here and there can make in the overall scheme of things, and to comment about the number of different opinions there are on what's 'ideal'. I know that precision is important, but if it's not 100% 'ideal' anyway then how important is it really? I guess that's why, when I got a cam for my Z06, I had a person that I knew design one for me and went with it; I tried to figure out what whould be best for my car by researching, but there were so many different schools of thought (some say that a 224 cam is the biggest you want to go in a daily-driven street car, while others say 'get the biggest one that fits without crashing pistons into valves....the drivability can be fixed with the tune...). Maybe I'm just envious of those experts....that's probably it.

csmc711

iTrader: (4)

This is absolutly true, but

1) he did not say "give me what you think is best"
2) he did not bash comp in the original post
3) he payed extra to get what he wanted and did not get it
4) is he being a baby not getting his way? maybe
5) does it matter? see #3
6) You do have a very valid point and should be awsome reading FOR ANOTHER POST
7) can we all stop bashing him?

He posted what he asked for, what he got and thats its getting corrected. Now all we can hope for is that he reports back on what his new cam looks like, and, if were very very lucky, he will remember this thread and be HONEST and tell us if the car performed the way he expected it, now, everyone, shhhhhhhhhhh or we will scare the wiley critter away!!!