When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"?
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,207
Likes: 0
From: College Station, Tx
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Is there really that big a variance - you say up to 15 thou over? The bores obviously can't vary that far since the pistons would not seal up (well, we are talking ls1's here, so maybe they do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).
Seriously though, I would submit the bores are at least within 1 thou (probably better).
So if the bores are the same then if you suggest they vary that much it must be in the stroke? What kind of deviation do we see there - I honestly don't know - but again, I wouldn't think it would be much - esp. as the ls1 is already a positive deck height motor.
If your setup uses a stock crank but a 15 thou overbore, then I just don't see how you can call it stock displacement - it's obviously not - it has a 15 thou bigger bore. In my mind that is just one of those 1 is not equal to 2 situations.
Chris
<small>[ May 09, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: ChrisB ]</small>
Seriously though, I would submit the bores are at least within 1 thou (probably better).
So if the bores are the same then if you suggest they vary that much it must be in the stroke? What kind of deviation do we see there - I honestly don't know - but again, I wouldn't think it would be much - esp. as the ls1 is already a positive deck height motor.
If your setup uses a stock crank but a 15 thou overbore, then I just don't see how you can call it stock displacement - it's obviously not - it has a 15 thou bigger bore. In my mind that is just one of those 1 is not equal to 2 situations.
Chris
<small>[ May 09, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: ChrisB ]</small>
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? No whining here Terry. Just a simple comparo. You mean to tell me that you picked up 0.5 sec. without removing any weight? I call <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" /> on that.
I am in the process of upgrading to double springs and a new cam. So I will have something for your punk as in a couple of weeks.
What will you do when I crush your ET? Probably have MMS copy my cam and market it as their own!
The only title you have on here is "Best Bullshitter" Burger!
I am in the process of upgrading to double springs and a new cam. So I will have something for your punk as in a couple of weeks.
What will you do when I crush your ET? Probably have MMS copy my cam and market it as their own!
The only title you have on here is "Best Bullshitter" Burger!
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,556
Likes: 0
From: Nawf Carolina
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Here's my .02 on the subject.
346 is the stock ci. But there is a difference in stock displacement and stock short block. Using aftermarket components might add to the same ci, but it isn't the stock short block. Thats why George's new motor and Terry's current motor should be in 2 different "classes" so to speak.
I can take the crank out of a 4.8 pickup engine, offset grind it, take a 6.0 liter block and bore it .040 and have very close to 346 ci (345.6), stock displacement but no-where near stock short block.
What about rebuilds with stock-ish components, like using LS6 rods and pistons. Sure those are stock components, just not stock in the engine you are referring to. The bolt on guys wouldn't think its fair if someone was using LS6 valvesprings to let them rev higher and safer. They wouldn't want someone running LS6 internals either and calling it a bolt on car, since those are "stock" parts.
J.
<small>[ May 09, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Crazyquik ]</small>
346 is the stock ci. But there is a difference in stock displacement and stock short block. Using aftermarket components might add to the same ci, but it isn't the stock short block. Thats why George's new motor and Terry's current motor should be in 2 different "classes" so to speak.
I can take the crank out of a 4.8 pickup engine, offset grind it, take a 6.0 liter block and bore it .040 and have very close to 346 ci (345.6), stock displacement but no-where near stock short block.
What about rebuilds with stock-ish components, like using LS6 rods and pistons. Sure those are stock components, just not stock in the engine you are referring to. The bolt on guys wouldn't think its fair if someone was using LS6 valvesprings to let them rev higher and safer. They wouldn't want someone running LS6 internals either and calling it a bolt on car, since those are "stock" parts.
J.
<small>[ May 09, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Crazyquik ]</small>
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Chris, sorry for the definitiveness, but I was merely stating that GM is not that accurate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> GM makes ( If I recall correctly) a 10 over piston for those wanrranty jobs, and special need jobs. Terrys car would not be equal to Georges due to the simple fact that one has lighter, forged internals, where terry still has the OE pistons, and rods. The HP might be near the same, but the rate of acceleration, and how quick the motor "raps" would be totally different.
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Here is a question. What if I take off my oil pan and put in ARP rod bolts and a modified oil pump (shortblock otherwise stock). Is it still a "stock" shortblock? I haven't done anything that will help performance, just added reliability. I can see it either way.
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
No whining here Terry. Just a simple comparo. You mean to tell me that you picked up 0.5 sec. without removing any weight? I call on that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My weight has been in the 3400# area for a long time, probably 6 months now.
Here are my bests at each step:
11.57 (224 v3.1 cam)
11.34 (added 229v2.1 cam, tuning, TP4400)
11.16 (Added EWP, ram air, took off another 25#, got 60' time down)
I've actually run a corrected 11.00 in the 1/8th by hooking better, but so far I can't hook at the 1/4 mile tracks like that.
Right now I'm working on taking off another 150# and changing my heads/cam to a more aggressive setup.
No whining here Terry. Just a simple comparo. You mean to tell me that you picked up 0.5 sec. without removing any weight? I call on that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My weight has been in the 3400# area for a long time, probably 6 months now.
Here are my bests at each step:
11.57 (224 v3.1 cam)
11.34 (added 229v2.1 cam, tuning, TP4400)
11.16 (Added EWP, ram air, took off another 25#, got 60' time down)
I've actually run a corrected 11.00 in the 1/8th by hooking better, but so far I can't hook at the 1/4 mile tracks like that.
Right now I'm working on taking off another 150# and changing my heads/cam to a more aggressive setup.
Thread Starter
TECH Junkie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,987
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, FL
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Wow! Look what I started here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
My point of the whole post was just to get opinions on what everyone considers what. I guess I won't be able to fall into any "class" now, or with the last motor for that matter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I guess it is an all bore motor now, although the bore is small compared to the resleeved motors. Nick found a block that was able to go .050 over, for a total of 355cid with the stock crank and no resleeving. I think the slightly bigger bore will help unshroud the valves a little better.
Some of you folks seem to read a little too much into this stuff. Look at some of the rules for NHRA Stock categories. I guess it all stems down to each individual's definition and point of view...
JS: You mention that "funny stuff" could go on once someone goes into an engine... What's to stop me from saying that my shortblock is a low mileage 100% stock untouched factory piece? Same with Raugh... He never even had to mention his recent rebuild back to stock specs with upgraded rings.
Let's lighten up <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" /> a little bit. Hell, it's not like any of this stuff matters anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
My point of the whole post was just to get opinions on what everyone considers what. I guess I won't be able to fall into any "class" now, or with the last motor for that matter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I guess it is an all bore motor now, although the bore is small compared to the resleeved motors. Nick found a block that was able to go .050 over, for a total of 355cid with the stock crank and no resleeving. I think the slightly bigger bore will help unshroud the valves a little better.
Some of you folks seem to read a little too much into this stuff. Look at some of the rules for NHRA Stock categories. I guess it all stems down to each individual's definition and point of view...
JS: You mention that "funny stuff" could go on once someone goes into an engine... What's to stop me from saying that my shortblock is a low mileage 100% stock untouched factory piece? Same with Raugh... He never even had to mention his recent rebuild back to stock specs with upgraded rings.
Let's lighten up <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" /> a little bit. Hell, it's not like any of this stuff matters anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine
Verdad Gallardo
7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin
Verdad Gallardo
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,556
Likes: 0
From: Nawf Carolina
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? You mention NHRA Stock class, what about NASCAR Stock cars? Just look how far they push the boundries of stock <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Raugh is using LS6 stuff George. Like I said, its stock LS6 stuff, just not stock for his motor.
J.
Raugh is using LS6 stuff George. Like I said, its stock LS6 stuff, just not stock for his motor.
J.
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Did I hit a cord with u George?I'm sorry.
All I was saying is that things can be done that NO ONE will know.U of all people should no that.
Its funny u brought that u becasue some little birdie told me someones converter was BIGGER than he tells people.Well if thats the truth then who knows what else is he not telling us about his car.
I wont go into names but it bothers me when I find out from a reliable sorce something is rotten in LS1 land.
I gave an opinion George u asked.Thats my God given right.We all no its not cheating unless u get caught.Good luck George.
JS
Sez whats others r afraid to say.
All I was saying is that things can be done that NO ONE will know.U of all people should no that.
Its funny u brought that u becasue some little birdie told me someones converter was BIGGER than he tells people.Well if thats the truth then who knows what else is he not telling us about his car.
I wont go into names but it bothers me when I find out from a reliable sorce something is rotten in LS1 land.
I gave an opinion George u asked.Thats my God given right.We all no its not cheating unless u get caught.Good luck George.
JS
Sez whats others r afraid to say.
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,207
Likes: 0
From: College Station, Tx
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by G2 LS1:
<strong>. The HP might be near the same, but the rate of acceleration, and how quick the motor "raps" would be totally different.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the rotating assembly is heavier then inertial losses should be higher - so with identical setups the lighter rotating assembly motor should have more hp - and how fast it revs - in neutral you may notice a difference - but when in gear I don't think you are going to notice a big difference?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What if I take off my oil pan and put in ARP rod bolts and a modified oil pump (shortblock otherwise stock). Is it still a "stock" shortblock? I haven't done anything that will help performance, just added reliability. I can see it either way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Come on, it's not that complicated. Whether you add performance or not is irrelevant as far as if something is "stock" or not is concerned. I could take a ls6 motor, put ls1 heads on it - it would be slower, but it still wouldn't be stock.
If you want to know if something is stock/stock shortblock I would suggest
Did part yyy come on the motor from the factory?
If yes, it is stock. If no, it is not stock.
Example - ARP rod bolts.
Did they come on the motor stock? NO
Is the shortblock stock? NO.
Chris
<strong>. The HP might be near the same, but the rate of acceleration, and how quick the motor "raps" would be totally different.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the rotating assembly is heavier then inertial losses should be higher - so with identical setups the lighter rotating assembly motor should have more hp - and how fast it revs - in neutral you may notice a difference - but when in gear I don't think you are going to notice a big difference?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What if I take off my oil pan and put in ARP rod bolts and a modified oil pump (shortblock otherwise stock). Is it still a "stock" shortblock? I haven't done anything that will help performance, just added reliability. I can see it either way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Come on, it's not that complicated. Whether you add performance or not is irrelevant as far as if something is "stock" or not is concerned. I could take a ls6 motor, put ls1 heads on it - it would be slower, but it still wouldn't be stock.
If you want to know if something is stock/stock shortblock I would suggest
Did part yyy come on the motor from the factory?
If yes, it is stock. If no, it is not stock.
Example - ARP rod bolts.
Did they come on the motor stock? NO
Is the shortblock stock? NO.
Chris
TECH Veteran
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Seems like a moron proof question.
If your cubes are stock (346) and you do something where they become 346.0000000000001, you no longer have stock cubes.
Am I wrong?
If I am than a year of learning this stuff went in one ear and out the other.
If your cubes are stock (346) and you do something where they become 346.0000000000001, you no longer have stock cubes.
Am I wrong?
If I am than a year of learning this stuff went in one ear and out the other.
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? Stock is "stock" in my opinion. If it's in your car, and didn't come that way from the factory, it's not stock.
But, I change my oil filter....does that not make it a stock shortblock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Now WHO's in the 10's on "STOCK" shortblock???
But, I change my oil filter....does that not make it a stock shortblock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Now WHO's in the 10's on "STOCK" shortblock???
I can shift faster than you.
iTrader: (21)
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,133
Likes: 0
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jantzer98SS:
<strong>Now WHO's in the 10's on "STOCK" shortblock???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm going to shoot for that this year. 10s or BOOM!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> If it blows up, that's what the spare motor is for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
<strong>Now WHO's in the 10's on "STOCK" shortblock???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm going to shoot for that this year. 10s or BOOM!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> If it blows up, that's what the spare motor is for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
D(irecto)r Pepper
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 0
From: Houston Raceway Park...in TEXAS.
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jantzer98SS:
<strong>
Now WHO's in the 10's on "STOCK" shortblock???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">10.86 with the STOCK short block.
10.66 with a rebuild and rings.
Both with the "original" Yank Pro Thruster 4400 torque converter.
Raugh.
<strong>
Now WHO's in the 10's on "STOCK" shortblock???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">10.86 with the STOCK short block.
10.66 with a rebuild and rings.
Both with the "original" Yank Pro Thruster 4400 torque converter.
Raugh.
Thread Starter
TECH Junkie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,987
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, FL
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JS:
<strong>Did I hit a cord with u George?I'm sorry.
All I was saying is that things can be done that NO ONE will know.U of all people should no that.
Its funny u brought that u becasue some little birdie told me someones converter was BIGGER than he tells people.Well if thats the truth then who knows what else is he not telling us about his car.
I wont go into names but it bothers me when I find out from a reliable sorce something is rotten in LS1 land.
I gave an opinion George u asked.Thats my God given right.We all no its not cheating unless u get caught.Good luck George.
JS
Sez whats others r afraid to say.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No not at all. Sorry if I gave the impression I was ticked off. It just amazes me how seriously some people take this stuff. And I know that in the technical sense a .0001 over motor is not stock cid. I'm not talking a pure technical aspect here. More of a "class" thing. A slight overbore on stock cylinders is not a big deal.
Also, this post wasn't brought up to determine what is a stock shortblock. I would consider a stock shortblock to be as delivered from GM, no variations. However, I still consider a stock cid to pretty much be anything that isn't radically different in the bore/stroke category, like 4.1" sleeved cylinders or stroker cranks.
Comparing NHRA Stock Eliminator cars to Winston Cup cars isn't a very good comparo, either... The stock in NASCAR refers only to the shape of the body. In NHRA it refers to pretty much the entire car/powertrain as far as what is allowed.
I'll drop the whole issue since no one is going to agree on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
<strong>Did I hit a cord with u George?I'm sorry.
All I was saying is that things can be done that NO ONE will know.U of all people should no that.
Its funny u brought that u becasue some little birdie told me someones converter was BIGGER than he tells people.Well if thats the truth then who knows what else is he not telling us about his car.
I wont go into names but it bothers me when I find out from a reliable sorce something is rotten in LS1 land.
I gave an opinion George u asked.Thats my God given right.We all no its not cheating unless u get caught.Good luck George.
JS
Sez whats others r afraid to say.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No not at all. Sorry if I gave the impression I was ticked off. It just amazes me how seriously some people take this stuff. And I know that in the technical sense a .0001 over motor is not stock cid. I'm not talking a pure technical aspect here. More of a "class" thing. A slight overbore on stock cylinders is not a big deal.
Also, this post wasn't brought up to determine what is a stock shortblock. I would consider a stock shortblock to be as delivered from GM, no variations. However, I still consider a stock cid to pretty much be anything that isn't radically different in the bore/stroke category, like 4.1" sleeved cylinders or stroker cranks.
Comparing NHRA Stock Eliminator cars to Winston Cup cars isn't a very good comparo, either... The stock in NASCAR refers only to the shape of the body. In NHRA it refers to pretty much the entire car/powertrain as far as what is allowed.
I'll drop the whole issue since no one is going to agree on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Thread Starter
TECH Junkie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,987
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, FL
Re: When is an engine no longer considered "stock cid"? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JS:
<strong>Its funny u brought that u becasue some little birdie told me someones converter was BIGGER than he tells people.Well if thats the truth then who knows what else is he not telling us about his car.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One last thing... What's the big deal about a converter? Why would someone lie about how big their converter is? I've never understood people trying to downplay their setups to make them look like something they aren't.
I'll probably be changing converters to something really nasty a little while after the motor goes in. I think it's going to want a little more than a 4500 stall...
<strong>Its funny u brought that u becasue some little birdie told me someones converter was BIGGER than he tells people.Well if thats the truth then who knows what else is he not telling us about his car.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One last thing... What's the big deal about a converter? Why would someone lie about how big their converter is? I've never understood people trying to downplay their setups to make them look like something they aren't.
I'll probably be changing converters to something really nasty a little while after the motor goes in. I think it's going to want a little more than a 4500 stall...