I'm right in the middle of assembling my shortblock

Got the rings fitted, and the bottom end in.

Maching work done by Katech
Block is .010 over
stock crank
billet mains
Crower billet rods
JE forged pistons
Fed. Mogul main bearings
Clevite 633P rod bearings

All the bearing clearances check out, measured directly w/ a bore gauge
piston to bore clearance is at spec for JE

But the rotating assembly seems overly hard to turn.

The pistons are a full skirt design, and the required more persuation on install than i'm use to.

Anybody have forged pistons that seemed to have more "stiction" than normal??

FWIW
piston to bore clearance is .005
main bearing clearances are all within .002
rod bearing clearances are all within .0015
wrist pin clearances are all .0012

the rings are normal tension

The bores are .001 out of round w/o the heads torqued down. The should even out w/ the heads on.

experiences??

 

I think this is normal. Until you have a good oil film on the bearing surfaces and the rings have seated in the bores, it will be a little stiff to turn over. My shortblock was the same way and others that I have seen were just like that.

Shane

 

I am building a similar shortblock and Norris Motorsports is using .001" main bearings I think for my setup. Fed Mogul as well. We also went with JE Pistons with valve reliefs instead of Lunati secondary to back order.. We pretty much have the same shortblock. Mine is almost done and it is getting balanced and blueprinted as well.

 

Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. FWIW, I used .002 - .003 for the clearances on the mains and rods (per ARE). I would make sure you have at least .002 on the mains or you will chew them up. I tried with .015 on two of them and the results were not good. Had to align hone the mains and turn the crank because it burned one of the bearings so bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> The LS1 motors do not like tight clearances.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Reckless:
<strong>Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. FWIW, I used .002 - .003 for the clearances on the mains and rods (per ARE). I would make sure you have at least .002 on the mains or you will chew them up. I tried with .015 on two of them and the results were not good. Had to align hone the mains and turn the crank because it burned one of the bearings so bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> The LS1 motors do not like tight clearances.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. .0025"-.003" is the proper main and rod clearance for an LS1/LS6 family engine.

 

Are all the rods facing the right way? If they are like a SBC the big chamfer goes on the crank side and the other side against the other rod. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

Did you try an initial fit up without the rods/pistons, only the crank, then use a small torque wrench to turn the crank over? Piston rings take the most to turn, even liberally coated with oil...

 

It's not the crank i'd say

With the crank in, no rod/piston assemblies, it spins freely.

It's the pistons that are holding it up i think

Measured at the crank pulley bolt, it takes a setting of 90 ft*lbs on the torque wrench to keep it from clicking when turning the crank. That just seems like it's too much.

My bad on the rod bearings, they are 633H not 633P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Emailed Chris at Katech about it, still awaiting the reply.

I'm sure it'll loosen up when the rings seat and the heads are on.

FWIW, rings are 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 C&A plasma-moly file fit. top gap .024, 2nd gap .018, oil ring at .020

All per C&A spec for 15+ psi boost <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Rods are in so the chamfer on the bearing is at the outside of the rod journal. The Crowers are not symetric on the big end, wider on one side than the other. Wide section is on the inside of the journal, so the two rods have the wide section toward each other.

 

Sounds like the same setup in my motor for rings. I remember it was hard to turn after the pistons and rings were in, but 90lbft? Seems a little tight to me. Did you file the rings yourself? If so, did you fit them in the bores to confirm the gaps? Just thinking out loud.
Todd

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by y2khawk:
<strong>It's not the crank i'd say

With the crank in, no rod/piston assemblies, it spins freely.

It's the pistons that are holding it up i think

Measured at the crank pulley bolt, it takes a setting of 90 ft*lbs on the torque wrench to keep it from clicking when turning the crank. That just seems like it's too much.

My bad on the rod bearings, they are 633H not 633P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Emailed Chris at Katech about it, still awaiting the reply.

I'm sure it'll loosen up when the rings seat and the heads are on.

FWIW, rings are 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 C&A plasma-moly file fit. top gap .024, 2nd gap .018, oil ring at .020

All per C&A spec for 15+ psi boost <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Rods are in so the chamfer on the bearing is at the outside of the rod journal. The Crowers are not symetric on the big end, wider on one side than the other. Wide section is on the inside of the journal, so the two rods have the wide section toward each other.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Have you tried to turn other standard ring tension motors in the past.

I am not sure if it should take 90 ft lbs, but i think standard tension rings are quite a bit harder to turn the motor over than a low tension ring.


How much longer before it's back on the road.
I'm having withdrawl symptoms .... I keep watching your 10 second pass over and over and over....

 

90ft/lbs is way to much IMO.
Something is wrong, that seems like way to much friction to me. Piston selection should not make much difference especially with .005" bore clearance.
My rebuilt shortblock with gapless rings and standard tension oil rings with stock pistons with .0035" bore clearance had around 22ft/lbs breakaway torque to spin.Your rod bearing clearance seems to tight also. I was at .0025"+ and .002"+ on the mains.
Is your thrust clearnance adequate and also rod side clearance?
Steve

 

Also you say you have .005 bore clearance.

You should be able to slip a .005" feeler gauge between the skirt(at the checking point specified on the piston)and bore if you truly have the proper clearance.
Those pistons should not be the least bit tight in the bores with no rings installed.

<small>[ May 11, 2002, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: SJH ]</small>

 

thrust clearances are all fine. .017 to .020 on all the rods.

Rod bearings are mid-range in the specs. so i figure they should be ok

I checked out the piston clearance w/ a feeler, at .005 i should be able to get a .0025 feeler in there. The pin side of the piston is no problem. Feeler drops right in. At the skirt though, no go. Poped out one of the pistons to measure yet again. As speced by JE, .5" up from the bottom on the skirts: 3.906" Piston order was for a 3.910 bore w/ .004 clearance. I'm actually more clearance than they call for, 3.9112" bore. That is confirmed w/ a bore gauge on all holes.

This has me baffled <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Unless having the heads off distorts the bores that much, i don't understand.

It has loosened up a bit though, only 80 ft*lb break away now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

hmmmm, need a break. Off to the bar <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />

well i measured again, after double checking my bore gauge on the calipers.

Looks like the bores are about .010 off <img border="0" alt="[fight]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_punch.gif" />

I must have been on crack when i measured the first dozen times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

i begining to wonder if they were even honed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

definately time for <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" />

comes apart tomorrow

grrrrr, time to order a new set of rings

<img border="0" alt="[guns]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" />

<small>[ May 11, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: y2khawk ]</small>

 

back to a bare block

now to the bar

am i talking to myself?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by y2khawk:
<strong>am i talking to myself?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

I hate when you have to spend 4 hours assembling a shortblock, and then if you have to take it back apart it takes 15 minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

 

It just good you caught this now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Good luck getting it back together.

 

Yeah it should not take that much effort to spin the motor my ARE 422ci shortblock was not like that when I turned the crank at the shop.

 

Yes Todd, ground the rings myself. So the end gaps are all confirmed

When we first did the test fit on the pistons, i measured and re-measured and re-measured the bore and pistons because it was so tight. But they check out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I'm at a loss on what to check, i've measured everything and it's all within spec on the tolerances. Not much else i can do i guess.

I'm planning to have the car ready for the local club's next track event. We've got Mid-Michigan rented for a King of the Hill shootout <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

The shortblock is just about done, front cover and oil pan are next.

Taking the heads back to the porter this afternoon to have the exhasut valve seats re-cut. The original valve job wasn't deep enough, and my spring install height was about .03 too short. DOH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Motor and trans will be back in the car next weekend, then it's a matter of plumbing. ALOT of plumbing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

All new for just about everything

 

well, on the bright side all the bearing clearances are still the same. So it should go together rather quickly when it's time

THe measuring takes time. But i'm more pissed that i gotta get a new set of rings and re-file them. I hate that part <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just hope this isn't an indication of how this year is gonna go. <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />