Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening...
05-30-2002, 07:31 AM
#41
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SERIALPIMP:
<strong>What is wrong with using the exhaust to pull excess crankcase pressure out with a stepped breather that allows the oil to drip back down, this is what most 8 and 9 second small tire drag cars do, Moroso sells a kit, as do a few other companies,
If you don't know what I am talking about I can explain more.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure but they also don't run an exhaust system after the headers. Those systems are designed for open headers only.
Tim
<strong>What is wrong with using the exhaust to pull excess crankcase pressure out with a stepped breather that allows the oil to drip back down, this is what most 8 and 9 second small tire drag cars do, Moroso sells a kit, as do a few other companies,
If you don't know what I am talking about I can explain more.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure but they also don't run an exhaust system after the headers. Those systems are designed for open headers only.
Tim
05-30-2002, 08:31 AM
#42
Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Might be time for the leak down tester and try it with the piston 1/2 down the stroke...something isn't right</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did you read anything I typed in this thread? The engine is a 434ci setup, and there was basically NO way to vent crankcase pressure on that pass. Our valvecover gaskets are not that nice, if they don't sit in the groove properly they are pretty easy to get out of place.
The motor has about 400 miles on it, and I watched them assemble it. They are pretty particular about details when they develop a new experimental motor for me to beat on.
Tony
The motor has about 400 miles on it, and I watched them assemble it. They are pretty particular about details when they develop a new experimental motor for me to beat on.
Tony
05-30-2002, 09:47 AM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... Nineball I think you should setup up the PCV system like stock, put a small restrictor inline, catchcan and live with a little bit of oil consumption. Otherwise you are looking at positive crankcase pressure and blown gaskets consistently.
Cheers,
Chris
Cheers,
Chris
05-30-2002, 10:42 AM
#44
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... In 9ball's situation, keep in mind he is making almost 600 hp at the crank.
I think we tend to talk to much about bad rings and not enuff about proper crankcase ventilation.
I personally have no interest in a belt driven crankcase evac system, which I know the BeaSSt runs. I believe Dave runs a Moroso setup.
Now, I think the bottom line here is this:
Should we run an actual evac setup or just a remote filtering system?
An evac setup might make a little extra power and it would not be too difficult to set up.
I don't think I need to run braided line for that setup since the factory doesn't... I wonder if aftermarket catchcans have barbed inlets so I can just use c-clamps and rubber hosing.
I think we tend to talk to much about bad rings and not enuff about proper crankcase ventilation.
I personally have no interest in a belt driven crankcase evac system, which I know the BeaSSt runs. I believe Dave runs a Moroso setup.
Now, I think the bottom line here is this:
Should we run an actual evac setup or just a remote filtering system?
An evac setup might make a little extra power and it would not be too difficult to set up.
I don't think I need to run braided line for that setup since the factory doesn't... I wonder if aftermarket catchcans have barbed inlets so I can just use c-clamps and rubber hosing.
05-30-2002, 10:43 AM
#45
Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... I may try to modify my valvecovers. More vents anyone? LOL!
I'll do everything possible first, before resorting to oiling down my intake and heads again. Those catchcans work slightly, I've done three different setups with those in the past. Oil still gets past the filters and catch cans and gets into the intake.
No bueno.
I'll do everything possible first, before resorting to oiling down my intake and heads again. Those catchcans work slightly, I've done three different setups with those in the past. Oil still gets past the filters and catch cans and gets into the intake.
No bueno.
05-30-2002, 10:45 AM
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05-30-2002, 11:15 AM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>What if we just run the lines from the valve covers to a catch can, and have NO RETURN to the intake or throttle body inlets.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">its doable
Someone i know that i mentioned before had this setup on his 88 formula with an S-trim and 15lbs of boost. They measured crank case pressure and didn't have any. Worked good for him
all he used was a -12an bulkhead in one valvecover and routed it to the catch can
Also john, you can get a catch can with a 3/8" inlet so you could go to home depot and find a 3/8" barbed fitting
<strong>What if we just run the lines from the valve covers to a catch can, and have NO RETURN to the intake or throttle body inlets.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">its doable
Someone i know that i mentioned before had this setup on his 88 formula with an S-trim and 15lbs of boost. They measured crank case pressure and didn't have any. Worked good for him
all he used was a -12an bulkhead in one valvecover and routed it to the catch can
Also john, you can get a catch can with a 3/8" inlet so you could go to home depot and find a 3/8" barbed fitting
05-30-2002, 11:39 AM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... As ChrisB said before, I ran the caddy electric vacuum pump, and I had a boost/vacuum guage permanently attached to my crankcase for a good 3000 miles.
My findings were:
1) the electric pump couldnt keep up with the building pressure at WOT
2) I'd get about -10" of vacuum at idle, and by 6700rpms at WOT i'd be at 1.5psi of boost in my crankcase....with the pressure going up linearly through the rpm range.
3) On really hot days or when the oil temps got high, the pump would still manage to suck up some oil into the catchcan, sometimes significant amounts (in other words, use the LS6 valley cover to fix this, I tried modding the baffles in stock valve covers and that got me nowhere)
4) on the dyno it made no difference at all (swapped between stock and vacuum assisted, and even when there was vacuum there was no torque/hp difference)
If anybody wants the caddy pump, wiring plug, and mounting bracket, I'll sell it to ya. Send me a msg. Two of these pumps together might just be enough.
My findings were:
1) the electric pump couldnt keep up with the building pressure at WOT
2) I'd get about -10" of vacuum at idle, and by 6700rpms at WOT i'd be at 1.5psi of boost in my crankcase....with the pressure going up linearly through the rpm range.
3) On really hot days or when the oil temps got high, the pump would still manage to suck up some oil into the catchcan, sometimes significant amounts (in other words, use the LS6 valley cover to fix this, I tried modding the baffles in stock valve covers and that got me nowhere)
4) on the dyno it made no difference at all (swapped between stock and vacuum assisted, and even when there was vacuum there was no torque/hp difference)
If anybody wants the caddy pump, wiring plug, and mounting bracket, I'll sell it to ya. Send me a msg. Two of these pumps together might just be enough.
05-31-2002, 10:26 PM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>I personally have no interest in a belt driven crankcase evac system.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PSJ (and perhaps NineBall, who confessed that he would "do everything possible first" to avoid oiling down his bullet again.)
I doff my hat to your legendary prowess in LS1 speed wars, however, IF a problem does exist with positive pressure in the crankcase, and there is no other apparent answer, why delay the inevitable? Perhaps it may take some ingenuity and a few extra minutes to engineer, but I cannot believe, given your reputation, that you would shrink from an obvious, yet sure cure.
I am reasonably sure that the originality of your vehicle is not at issue, and surely you are not lacking funds. I know that you are more than capable of accomplishing this challenge. Why balk now, when you've come this far, only to puke embarassingly large amounts of oil on an otherwise object d'art?
Just axing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
SC
PS - As an aside, can anyone here suggest a sound reason for the LS1 style engines having an inordinate amount of trouble with PCV and positive crankcase pressure, as compared to the SBC/BBC?
<small>[ May 31, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: SS00Blue ]</small>
<strong>I personally have no interest in a belt driven crankcase evac system.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PSJ (and perhaps NineBall, who confessed that he would "do everything possible first" to avoid oiling down his bullet again.)
I doff my hat to your legendary prowess in LS1 speed wars, however, IF a problem does exist with positive pressure in the crankcase, and there is no other apparent answer, why delay the inevitable? Perhaps it may take some ingenuity and a few extra minutes to engineer, but I cannot believe, given your reputation, that you would shrink from an obvious, yet sure cure.
I am reasonably sure that the originality of your vehicle is not at issue, and surely you are not lacking funds. I know that you are more than capable of accomplishing this challenge. Why balk now, when you've come this far, only to puke embarassingly large amounts of oil on an otherwise object d'art?
Just axing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
SC
PS - As an aside, can anyone here suggest a sound reason for the LS1 style engines having an inordinate amount of trouble with PCV and positive crankcase pressure, as compared to the SBC/BBC?
<small>[ May 31, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: SS00Blue ]</small>
05-31-2002, 10:42 PM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>The motor has about 400 miles on it, and I watched them assemble it. They are pretty particular about details when they develop a new experimental motor for me to beat on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony, nobody is questioning the quality of work that your engine received. The best engine-builder I know, from whom I learned most of that which I know, does leak-down tests on his engines, after the break-in, if output or operation is not what was expected.
It's not that anyone disrespects you or your engine-builder. Integrity of the ring package is a valid question with your symptoms. Test it. I've had engines with a much larger stroke & bore having no issues with respect to crankcase pressure.
Give it a shot.
SC
<small>[ May 31, 2002, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: SS00Blue ]</small>
<strong>The motor has about 400 miles on it, and I watched them assemble it. They are pretty particular about details when they develop a new experimental motor for me to beat on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony, nobody is questioning the quality of work that your engine received. The best engine-builder I know, from whom I learned most of that which I know, does leak-down tests on his engines, after the break-in, if output or operation is not what was expected.
It's not that anyone disrespects you or your engine-builder. Integrity of the ring package is a valid question with your symptoms. Test it. I've had engines with a much larger stroke & bore having no issues with respect to crankcase pressure.
Give it a shot.
SC
<small>[ May 31, 2002, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: SS00Blue ]</small>
06-01-2002, 06:39 AM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SS00Blue:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>The motor has about 400 miles on it, and I watched them assemble it. They are pretty particular about details when they develop a new experimental motor for me to beat on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony, nobody is questioning the quality of work that your engine received. The best engine-builder I know, from whom I learned most of that which I know, does leak-down tests on his engines, after the break-in, if output or operation is not what was expected.
It's not that anyone disrespects you or your engine-builder. Integrity of the ring package is a valid question with your symptoms. Test it. I've had engines with a much larger stroke & bore having no issues with respect to crankcase pressure.
Give it a shot.
SC</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony listen to what the man is saying because he is right. A leakdown tester is a tool that will confirm if it's the rings or not. I know of a LS1 engine that blew the valve cover breathers
off and still ran over 130mph in the 1/4 mile. When disassembled it was found that a ringland was completely gone on one piston. A crankcase evac system will just cover the problem up.
Do the leakdown Tony!!!!!
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>The motor has about 400 miles on it, and I watched them assemble it. They are pretty particular about details when they develop a new experimental motor for me to beat on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony, nobody is questioning the quality of work that your engine received. The best engine-builder I know, from whom I learned most of that which I know, does leak-down tests on his engines, after the break-in, if output or operation is not what was expected.
It's not that anyone disrespects you or your engine-builder. Integrity of the ring package is a valid question with your symptoms. Test it. I've had engines with a much larger stroke & bore having no issues with respect to crankcase pressure.
Give it a shot.
SC</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony listen to what the man is saying because he is right. A leakdown tester is a tool that will confirm if it's the rings or not. I know of a LS1 engine that blew the valve cover breathers
off and still ran over 130mph in the 1/4 mile. When disassembled it was found that a ringland was completely gone on one piston. A crankcase evac system will just cover the problem up.
Do the leakdown Tony!!!!!
06-01-2002, 03:14 PM
#52
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... If I get a chance I will do a leakdown.
I will first have to talk to Nick to see what good leakdown readings for my engine should be...
But I am in the middle of a long series of thoughtful changes to the car and a leakdown would not hurt. Might show why I don't mph as good as other big motor'd cars OR it will tell me the bottom end is fine and that I should look elsewhere.
John
ARE 422ci
I will first have to talk to Nick to see what good leakdown readings for my engine should be...
But I am in the middle of a long series of thoughtful changes to the car and a leakdown would not hurt. Might show why I don't mph as good as other big motor'd cars OR it will tell me the bottom end is fine and that I should look elsewhere.
John
ARE 422ci
06-01-2002, 03:19 PM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Terry Burger:
<strong>The REAL fix is an engine that is built properly and doesn't experience blow by. If you're running low tension oil rings (like the Pepper), an electric vacuum pump will help, but for the rest of us with stock like rings I don't think it makes any difference.
Right now I have the stock PVC setup. I've tried running an "open" PVC system with no improvement in oil consumption or power. In my case oil is coming past the rings, about 1qt every 500 miles.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Terry blowby is controled by the compression rings.... Low or high tension all the oil rings do is scrap the oil off the cylinder walls. You are right about the one thing... If everything is right you won't have much crankcase pressure.
<strong>The REAL fix is an engine that is built properly and doesn't experience blow by. If you're running low tension oil rings (like the Pepper), an electric vacuum pump will help, but for the rest of us with stock like rings I don't think it makes any difference.
Right now I have the stock PVC setup. I've tried running an "open" PVC system with no improvement in oil consumption or power. In my case oil is coming past the rings, about 1qt every 500 miles.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Terry blowby is controled by the compression rings.... Low or high tension all the oil rings do is scrap the oil off the cylinder walls. You are right about the one thing... If everything is right you won't have much crankcase pressure.
06-01-2002, 03:28 PM
#54
Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... So, you guys don't think its possible to blow one of our cheesy valvecover O-rings out with a 434ci 600 hp motor trying to breathe through a single 1/4" tube with a PCV valve inline and a breather?
Its not like I had good ventilation or a PCV system hooked up and this happened.
Tony
Its not like I had good ventilation or a PCV system hooked up and this happened.
Tony
06-01-2002, 05:37 PM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... not like it's a big chore to do a leakdown test to rule out any probelms you know...
Takes maybe an hour or 2 to do the test.
With 20%+ leakdown and a cracked piston on 1 cyl and around 9% on the rest, I had no problems with the stock pcv system handling the extra blowby.
And that was well over 600FLWHP on my supercharged motor.
I Always run a leakdown after a rebuild as **** happens sometimes and a leakdown is about the best way to make sure all is fine.
That and plug reading .
Steve
Takes maybe an hour or 2 to do the test.
With 20%+ leakdown and a cracked piston on 1 cyl and around 9% on the rest, I had no problems with the stock pcv system handling the extra blowby.
And that was well over 600FLWHP on my supercharged motor.
I Always run a leakdown after a rebuild as **** happens sometimes and a leakdown is about the best way to make sure all is fine.
That and plug reading .
Steve
06-01-2002, 06:31 PM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... Here is a picture of the vacuum pump setup that SSOOBLUE is talking about:
<img src="http://members.telocity.com/~89prochargedroc/pump.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://members.telocity.com/~89prochargedroc/pump.jpg" alt=" - " />
06-01-2002, 10:04 PM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>I will first have to talk to Nick to see what good leakdown readings for my engine should be...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A good ring package, as in C&A ZGS, 1-2% MAX. SpeedPro is higher, in the 10% range.
SC
PS - Thanks for the help, JimmyKash.
<small>[ June 01, 2002, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: SS00Blue ]</small>
<strong>I will first have to talk to Nick to see what good leakdown readings for my engine should be...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A good ring package, as in C&A ZGS, 1-2% MAX. SpeedPro is higher, in the 10% range.
SC
PS - Thanks for the help, JimmyKash.
<small>[ June 01, 2002, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: SS00Blue ]</small>
06-02-2002, 10:42 AM
#58
Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... I put about 100 miles on the car yesterday, beating on it pretty damn hard. With the three K&N breather filters I put on the valvecovers, it didn't spew any oil or blow any more gaskets.
Thanks for all the suggestions, hopefully this setup will continue working well. I like that belt-driven pump, kinda cool!
Tony
Thanks for all the suggestions, hopefully this setup will continue working well. I like that belt-driven pump, kinda cool!
Tony
06-03-2002, 09:58 PM
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Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>So, you guys don't think its possible to blow one of our cheesy valvecover O-rings out with a 434ci 600 hp motor trying to breathe through a single 1/4" tube with a PCV valve inline and a breather?
Its not like I had good ventilation or a PCV system hooked up and this happened.
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony,
have many 600+hp engines with 3/8" PCV set up. I have seen where you put all those breathers on the thing...is that the answer or a band aid? The thing has too much blow by to make that much positive pressure. You now have more breather on the thing than we run on a 700+hp Sprintcar engine which run on Alky...have you done the leakdown test?
No one is digging at you or the build....just interested to see WHY it has so much crank case pressure....
<strong>So, you guys don't think its possible to blow one of our cheesy valvecover O-rings out with a 434ci 600 hp motor trying to breathe through a single 1/4" tube with a PCV valve inline and a breather?
Its not like I had good ventilation or a PCV system hooked up and this happened.
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony,
have many 600+hp engines with 3/8" PCV set up. I have seen where you put all those breathers on the thing...is that the answer or a band aid? The thing has too much blow by to make that much positive pressure. You now have more breather on the thing than we run on a 700+hp Sprintcar engine which run on Alky...have you done the leakdown test?
No one is digging at you or the build....just interested to see WHY it has so much crank case pressure....
06-04-2002, 08:44 AM
#60
Re: Crankcase Pressure ruins my evening... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">have many 600+hp engines with 3/8" PCV set up</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do not have a PCV setup on this motor. It was a 1/4" rubber tube, going thru a PCV valve, thru a 1/4" breather filter. Nothing was pulling any positive crankcase pressure out. Your statement above is not similar to mine. 3/8" is also bigger than the 1/4" tube I have.
I put three of those breathers on, and it does not smoke or spew oil anymore. I put another 100 miles on the car last night (604 miles total now) and no signs of oil.
I don't have time right now to do a leakdown, about to head offshore for two weeks. The shop is closed by the time I get off work. I think some of you guys are missing the obvious here, my motor isn't the only big CID one that has had crankcase pressure issues. I doubt it would have happened if I had the PCV hooked up to the intake like normal, but I don't want that oil in my intake with this motor.
Tony
I put three of those breathers on, and it does not smoke or spew oil anymore. I put another 100 miles on the car last night (604 miles total now) and no signs of oil.
I don't have time right now to do a leakdown, about to head offshore for two weeks. The shop is closed by the time I get off work. I think some of you guys are missing the obvious here, my motor isn't the only big CID one that has had crankcase pressure issues. I doubt it would have happened if I had the PCV hooked up to the intake like normal, but I don't want that oil in my intake with this motor.
Tony