Will Race 4 Food

Guys,
Last weekend we ran some runs at the WinterNat's (in Australia) and to prove a theory correct, at a engine coolant temp of 120 degrees before the burnout, we made more power than at higher temps as a lot of the bracket/sportsman guys usually do. Did a dyno today on a different engine (engine dyno, not chassis dyno), at 120 degrees versus 200 degrees, and viola, 22 HP more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Will Race 4 Food

BTW, that dyno test was corrected ALT. Reason for posting this is, that some people like high coolant temps because they think that is worth more HP. NOT. Start your engine up just before your burnout, don't warm it. However, you must be using Synthetic oil for this, which you should have if your even halfway serious about your engine.
Cheers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

gwj

Hmmmm. I don't think I would want to be hammering on my engine until it's thoroughly warmed up. And at that point trying to maintain 120* (F) coolant would be just about impossible.

cobray

Your making the horsepower at the expense of the life of your engine. Your going to wear heavy the motor doing that by hammering on it when it is not running at the correct operating temperature.

<small>[ June 15, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: cobray ]</small>

Tim98TA

iTrader: (7)

FINALLY,,,,, someone proves it. I am a firm believer in cooler-is-better. 120 degrees is far from a cold engine. Take your hand and shove it in 120 degree water if it is so cool. I will say that the rest of the drive train MUST be brought up in temperature before running it hard. Why do you think you see the race cars put their rear ends on jacks when they unload and run their cars for about 10 minutes or so. They are warming up their drive train.
Hell I want my cooling fans to come on when I start my car. It is easier to keep an engine cool than it is to cool it off once it gets hot.
As far as the Synthetic oil, I change my oil every 2000 miles, or sooner, anyway so Synthetic is a waste for me. And I run 20W50 oil.

I am willing to bet that the resident troll, Terry Bugger, will have a negative opinion about this though.

Tim

kent

My best times have been run when car is just started and it is cool. I believe the individuals comment is correct from Australia. You bet I am going to use this method this fall.

JPR

This was my whole point and premise to the reverse cooling on the LS1's, People always say "heat makes horsepower" which in a sence is correct, but name that targeted heat temp, and nobody does. Anyone that dyno's alot, knows that your best pulls are made under 190 F.

<small>[ June 15, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: JPR ]</small>

Will Race 4 Food

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by cobray:
<strong>Your making the horsepower at the expense of the life of your engine. Your going to wear heavy the motor doing that by hammering on it when it is not running at the correct operating temperature.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NOT TRUE!
SO LONG as you have synthetic engine oil, not petro-chemical based (petroleum) engine oil, a cool engine makes more HP. Period. 120 degrees is what you should shoot for just before the burnout.
Do you ever see Pro Stock cars warming their engines up in the staging lanes? NEVER. Do their engines last? YES. Don't take my 26 years erxp' in drag racing with street/strip and race cars or engine dyno work, research what I'm saying. Yes, you still see Sportsman racers warming their engines up in the staging lanes, and it's one of two things: either they have mineral based engine oil (Should have synthetic), or they are still not knowing the facts. happens all the time.

"Even on a freezing morning, all you need to do is take the chill off when you use SYNTHETIC oil. Further heating synthetic oil makes no difference - it just needlessly puts heat into internal engine components and the coolant". True words.
After the run, the coolant temp should rarely see no more than 150 degrees before shutting it off, or driving back to the pits.
Cheers. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Tim98TA

iTrader: (7)

As I said in my previous post, this is excellent info. People seem to think that if you keep your bottom end hot and your top end cool, then you make more hp. While that is true in a sense, your bottom end should not be, per say, hot.

Tim

Will Race 4 Food

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JS:
Quote,"Dyno numbers dont mean sh**. other than for tuning purposes."

Engine dyno's do indicate real world experience, with two notable exceptions: They dont replicate G-force (positive under acceleration, negative under braking after the traps)and secondly, they don't replicate air speed into the air box/induction. Besides that, they are instrumented/corrected tools to use.
With this particular thread, we are looking at coolant temp (and also now someone bought it up, oil temp). Air speed and G-Forces do not affect either of those, with an engine dyno pull.
As stated before, take the chill off the oil (there's your oil operating temp), so as the oil, which touches all the internal engine parts, does not put heat into them, and with the coolant, 120 degrees is the best to start at just before the burnout. I can validate this if need be.

Quote,"Gotta play devils advocate too."

Thats fine, we need healthy sceptisicm on this board too.
Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

JS[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

<small>[ June 16, 2002, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Will Race 4 Food ]</small>

JS

iTrader: (4)

Interesting info guys.
I believe once the oil and drivetrain parts are up to operating temp u can hammer on the car.

Say for instance u drive to the track.The cars all warmed up after that ride.Most of the fluids will take time to cool.I stay outta the lanes for about 15 or 20 minutes.Then I try and push the car up to the line if I have people with me.Once I'm 1 or 2 away I restart the car and go into the burnout box.Its seems to work for me.My temps on autotap are at 155 to 175 tops.But I know my oil is hotter which to me is all that matters.

So far the car has been very consistant with this method.So there is some validity to what this post is saying.

I do agree with Joe on one point.
What is actually the BEST temp is hard to tell.
Dyno numbers dont mean sh**. other than for tuning purposes.

Only track testing and taking temps reading will find the best compromise.Of course that requires ALOT of testing.I'll stick to my 1 or 2 away and start the car routine as its worked the best for me.

FWIW
I've run my car back to back though and its only been of maybe .05 tops.Gotta play devils advocate too.

JS

<small>[ June 16, 2002, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: JS ]</small>

VAP

Did you actually run the ls1 at the winters or some other car ? How fast did you go with the ls1 ? - How much power are you making on Aussy soil ? What dyno ?
All the best. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Will Race 4 Food

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VAP:
<strong>Did you actually run the ls1 at the winters or some other car ? How fast did you go with the ls1 ? - How much power are you making on Aussy soil ? What dyno ?
All the best. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">VAP,
Different car we ran.
LS1 car is the first race car we have (are building) that has the LS1.
Friends dyno, what city are you in?
Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
PS, Engine going together for our race car, that engine not on dyno yet, have another LS1 Chevy that we have had on dyno. Circuit racers dyno, Superflow 901. Been drag racing @26 years, this LS1 stuff is different though...

<small>[ June 17, 2002, 05:56 AM: Message edited by: Will Race 4 Food ]</small>

cobray

When are you people going to realize that the GM engineers who designed and built the LS1 motor know more about it then you do.
Have fun with whatever your doing, but remember theres a penalty to pay for it.

Will Race 4 Food

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by cobray:
<strong>When are you people going to realize that the GM engineers who designed and built the LS1 motor know more about it then you do.
Have fun with whatever your doing, but remember theres a penalty to pay for it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They also designed it for everyday driving, and NOT maxd HP, which is what we are about. Are all the Pro Stock teams today wrong? NO. So thats <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" />

blazinredls1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by cobray:
<strong>When are you people going to realize that the GM engineers who designed and built the LS1 motor know more about it then you do.
Have fun with whatever your doing, but remember theres a penalty to pay for it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please see page five of chapter three of the GM owners manaual and exit this board..

cobray

blazinredls1, I thought the name of the board was ls1tech.com, I didnt know that you had to only be into hot-rodding only. Well shut my mouth and call me Leroy then. I guess whatever documentation error you mentioned means GM has no idea what there doing. Pardon me. Thanks for pointing that out.

Will Race 4 Food, Good luck with your project.

DropTopTerror

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by cobray:
<strong>When are you people going to realize that the GM engineers who designed and built the LS1 motor know more about it then you do.
Have fun with whatever your doing, but remember theres a penalty to pay for it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I felt a need to comment on this thread. Sir, GM is a company that builds autos for the masses. By no means is that task easy. In fact it is quite difficult. It means that the engineers of the f-body, who I can bet are hot-rodders themselves, had to make many hard sacrifices to meet the price point of the final engineered piece, the f-body. We all know this shows very clearly, some even mistake it for bad engineering work, which is what it is NOT. Tweaking and Tuning of the f-body line, regardless of engine, has been occuring for 3 decades plus by hot-rodders around the world. What they are actually doing is NOT re-engineering what GM has already done (because we applaud them for it), but extracting the POWER that GM left "dormant" in it's design, at the expense of some reliability/emissions/NVH/etc...

True hot-rodder's tweak and tweak and tweak until the final piece is reliable enough for the power they wish to put out. Simple.

Have fun with your car, above all...

cobray

Im sorry everybody for bringing this thread off topic. Maybe I can explain briefly why I made that statement and then we should get back to discussing Will Race 4 Food's question (Maybe we could move it to a different forum <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> I am the proud owner of my first F-Body. I have been on the board for a few weeks and I have read alot of stuff. What I have noticed is for every mod, especially the "free mod" stuff, I rarely hear about the people who, for example, trash thier $1000 throttle body trying to do the free EGR mod. I just wanted to point out that trying to operate your car below normal operating temperature is not good. I thought maybe he didnt realize it, since he was making a standard physics 101 statement.
Yes I realize that GM has to make cars for the masses and makes concessions for whatever reason. What Im trying to say is that making changes to the way it is designed (whether you think it is a good or optimal design, or not) has consequiences that alot of people dont bother to mention for whatever reasons. I was just trying to point that out that in the end the horsepower is not 'free' cause it is costing your motor life.

<small>[ June 17, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: cobray ]</small>

Colonel

"trash thier $1000 throttle body trying to do the free EGR mod."

Could you please tell me what exactly the throttle body has to do with the !EGR mod? Who has "trashed" their throttle body doing this? And where did you get $1000 being the price for the TB?

I've NEVER heard of anyone trashing their non-fly by wire throttle body by porting it much less by doing the !EGR mod (the EGR tube resides in the inlet of the intake manifold which is behind the throttle body.) BTW, some LS1s don't have an EGR system (such as the '01+ F-bodies and any year C5.)

<small>[ June 17, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>