SS00Blue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kimchee and Rice:
<strong>I can understand that.... Well, from now on, do your installs in the daylight or in a well lit garage. The dot on the crank gear is VERY hard to see. Needs to be marked with white paint.

Anyway, I still bet you only have bent pushrods and not valves. Do what I said in my previous 2 posts.

Good Luck, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Ron,</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It could be the pushrods, I suppose. If the intake never opens, there's no chance of air being compressed...

On your way to disassembly of the heads, check the rods. You may just have to replace a few of those. I had a ford that bent several pushrods into the famous "S" shape. It was because the cheap crappy single dowel pin on the cam sheared. Ford junk. I can't imagine why a .680 lift solid roller with 300lb (seat) springs broke that dowel after only a few dozen passes...

Anyway, check the rods...

SC

SJH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well I'm the one who swapped the cams. We didnt have a flash light so here is what happened. I made sure the cam gear was at 6 o'clock, took it out, slid the new cam in, and installed it with the dot at 6 o'clock as well. We're assuming that somewhere in there, the crank got turned and with no light, we couldnt tell. <note to self, ALWAYS use a flashlight from now on>

we just dont know how the crank one turned </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
you guys installed a cam in the dark?
<img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />
The further off the seat when the valves meet the piston will make it more likely you bent valves and not pushrods.
The valves meet the piston at an angle and it's easy to bend or **** the heads of the valves when they are way off of the seats and make contact at this angle.
The pushrods will be much tougher to bend in this particular case.
But this is just talk. It's so easy to determine this it is almost a waste of time to talk about.
PULL THE PUSH RODS AND DO A CYLINDER PRESSURE TEST. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Hey we all make mistakes. I have made some good ones myself.
I Have to stick by anybody who tries to do their own engine work even if they goof up. Even the best guys in the trade at one time KNEW NOTHING.
Just try not to get to frustrated and learn from this.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
Steve

<small>[ June 20, 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: SJH ]</small>

JennZ28

i still say bent valves.

do we have any updates on tis yet?

alot of posts concerning 180 out. it has been pretty much cleared that as long as your dot to dot, your fine on that issue.

has this comp check been done yet?
its easy to do. if you have bent valves you wont have compression. if you dont have bent valves, you will have compression.

no need in tearing down again until you get that done.

as you have pointed out in the previous posts, your valve train appears to working fine, the valves are opening and closing.

check the damn compression and get back with us so we few that seems to know what is going on cant help you.

steve frank

JennZ28

of course i just noticed i am posting under my wife's registration.

steve frank

SJH

I edited my above post as I think I need to make everything very clear to avoid more confusion <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />

wizkid

iTrader: (3)

You did this in the dark? Holy cow. Not bad for being blind folded I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Compression test results??

Pull the pushrods too, that is an easy job.

Eric

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

ill appologise ahead of time for not reading all of the posts, but if not suggested:

try to start the motor with the valvecovers OFF.

my are motor wouldnt run with them on..backfireing through the intake and exhaust.. took em off and fired right up..

conclusion: valvecovers were pushing down on the rockers/valves/valvesprings when tightened to the head and opening the valves on multiple cylinders.

just a thought

Ryoga

Well, we did the compression test and them removed the rocker arms and visually inspected the valve positions. Well, the gauge showed pressure during the inital start after sitting and then never again until the car rests again.

The visual check confirmed everything, after removing all the rocker arms, it seems that the exhaust valves were all staying down and not coming back up to the full closed position.

I guess that sells it, I'll be pulling the heads tomorrow and taking them to have them taken care of.

steve

sorry to hear it but i kinda new that was what is was.

anyways, wouldnt it be nice to get a set of heads ported for that beast....hint hint...

steve frank

98blackSS

What about checking pushrod straightness? Should he also pull these out and check em or are these mostly damaged during high rev problems, like snapped timing chain?

cantdrv65

iTrader: (3)

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to install the cam 180 degress out as Steve so eloquently put it...You people are confusing this with installing the distributor 180 degress out on the old small block Chevy. The only way the ignition timing would be off with dot to dot installation is for a defective cam reluctor ring. Sorry you have bent valves, please do the compression test, you will not have to do all cylinders you'll find it pretty quick. Just pull the heads buy some stock valves and relap them. If you are not SURE about the ability to do this correctly have a machine shop install and lap the valves. Shouldn't cost much and any good machine shop can do it.

cantdrv65

iTrader: (3)

When he ends up pulling the heads, yes he needs to check the pushrods.

SS00Blue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 98blackSS:
<strong>whew.. I'll need a vacation after this thread is over!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL! 98BlackSS! I think a group vacation is in order after Ryoga gets it fired up. If his wife is anything like mine, she's probably sick about this, so we need to take her along, too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 98blackSS:
<strong>What about checking pushrod straightness? Should he also pull these out and check em or are these mostly damaged during high rev problems, like snapped timing chain?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Naturally, it wouldn't hurt to check the pushrods, but this won't stop the engine from firing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jadeeglide1550:
<strong>but what I found was that the valves were not seating as the push rods were too short and the rocker arms were binding when adjusted. I had changed to screw in studs ( this was an earlier generation motor) and the machine shop had gotten to happy with the amount of material they had removed</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Great suggestions, Jadeeglide1550, but:

Since the heads never came off Ryoga's car, at least up until now, I would have serious doubts about the valvetrain geometry being mysteriously altered.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jadeeglide1550:
<strong>With the stock rocker arms and a cam change, you might have a problem as the base circles on these cams is smaller than on the stock cam.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True, the base circle of the cam may be different, but it's unlikely.

First, the new cam base circle would have to be of a larger diameter than stock, all other things being equal, in order for the valves to be held open. This is unlikely because all the basecircles I've ever heard of, excepting some proprietary roundy-round stuff, have smaller base circles to clear stokers, which in turn would require longer-than-stock pushrod lengths.

Second, and most damning, is that this cam was successfully used in another car.

SC

<small>[ June 20, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: SS00Blue ]</small>

black00WS6

if the valves were bent, would he have heard the tinging noise when he first cranked it over?? and there is no valve noise now, it sounds like a normal one cranking over but not starting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

SS00Blue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by black00WS6:
<strong>if the valves were bent, would he have heard the tinging noise when he first cranked it over?? and there is no valve noise now, it sounds like a normal one cranking over but not starting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No compression, as tesified by the finger-on-the-sparkplug hole method. Noise can be an indicator, but lack of compression is the death knell.

SC

rom3

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SS00Blue:
YOU CANNOT HAVE THE CAM AND CRANK GEARS IN THE POSITION SHOWN BY THIS PICTURE ( http://www.ls1info.com/article.php?sid=192 ) UNLESS YOU ARE ON #1 TDC!!!!!!!!![/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Once again, I appologize for any confusion I may have added to the mix, my bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> I simply was trying to analyze and help when I saw noone else posting. After re-thinking, I have to agree with your statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ June 20, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: rom3 ]</small>

Ryoga

Well, just got off the phone with MTI. I went through the whole sega with them and they are 99% sure that with what I'm describing and it being at least 3 teeth off the first time on the timing that the valves are toast. The easy testing method is to remove the rockers on one side and check the valve height and if they aren't all even then it's official. I'll be looking at a couple hundred bucks for them to rebuild them though, so that is not too horrible. Guess that pretty much officially ends my modding day, week, ?month? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

Thanks for all the help you guys have been. I hate it that you all were right on bout the bent valves though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

Plum Crazy Rob

iTrader: (3)

Just FYI, don't forget to budget an additional $200 or so for head bolts (you CAN NOT reuse them....) gaskets, and so on.

are you SURE you don't want to wait a bit and save money for heads <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Ryoga

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Plum Crazy Rob:
<strong>Just FYI, don't forget to budget an additional $200 or so for head bolts (you CAN NOT reuse them....) gaskets, and so on.

are you SURE you don't want to wait a bit and save money for heads <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">200 dollars? Whew! That hurts.... Can't afford heads for a good while, and need my daily driver running <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

98blackSS

That $200 is for the gasket/bolt kit, correct? Would it be any cheaper for him to buy the Napa gaskets and order the bolts seperately?