Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads.
08-04-2002, 10:27 PM
#21
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
nd the LS6.. Now we do have 346ci H/C cars dyno'ing 450rwhp plus as well. So that would give you your variances in the higher horsepower big engines.. What about a non-ls1/ls6 engine? How come I read used Nascar 350ci engines putting out 600hp.. What does that equate too in rwhp? About 510rwhp.. How many LS1's H/C 346ci cars are dyno'ing that? What is the limiting factor...? The DAMN INTAKE!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most guys with LS1's make around 1.15 - 1.25 hp per cubic inch. Most Nascar engines make around 2 hp per cubic inch. There are a lot more differences between the SB2 and LS1 than the intake manifold. =)
The intake isn't that bad, I put out 446rwhp with mine on 346ci.
nd the LS6.. Now we do have 346ci H/C cars dyno'ing 450rwhp plus as well. So that would give you your variances in the higher horsepower big engines.. What about a non-ls1/ls6 engine? How come I read used Nascar 350ci engines putting out 600hp.. What does that equate too in rwhp? About 510rwhp.. How many LS1's H/C 346ci cars are dyno'ing that? What is the limiting factor...? The DAMN INTAKE!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most guys with LS1's make around 1.15 - 1.25 hp per cubic inch. Most Nascar engines make around 2 hp per cubic inch. There are a lot more differences between the SB2 and LS1 than the intake manifold. =)
The intake isn't that bad, I put out 446rwhp with mine on 346ci.
08-04-2002, 10:36 PM
#22
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. I know your final #'s Terry. I was rounding it off to make the math easier for us ignorants.. I do not want to get totally off topic so I am jumping back on it.. We can save the SB2 and LS1 debate for another thread.. Lets get back to 346ci and LS6 or LS1 heads.. Are LS6 heads really worth it on a 346ci? Terry your car dyno'd pretty much the same as your friend JS.. JS has LS6 heads right?
08-04-2002, 11:34 PM
#23
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. Yes I have LS6 heads.
My car dynoed 441/399 but that was threw a 3.73/10-bolt combo.Its 431/395 threw my 12-bolt/4.30 combo now.
I still weigh 35?? with me in the car.I will get an exact weight this week to compare my car to most others that run 11.15 or faster but it looks like I'm giving up 300 to 400 lbs to most of the guys faster than me?I need ot keep away from Mickey D's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
JS
315 and dropping
My car dynoed 441/399 but that was threw a 3.73/10-bolt combo.Its 431/395 threw my 12-bolt/4.30 combo now.
I still weigh 35?? with me in the car.I will get an exact weight this week to compare my car to most others that run 11.15 or faster but it looks like I'm giving up 300 to 400 lbs to most of the guys faster than me?I need ot keep away from Mickey D's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
JS
315 and dropping
08-04-2002, 11:55 PM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. LS6 heads are worth it for the guys that want to run 10.60 NA. For everyone else, waste of money, unless you have more than 346 cubes. JS my 446 was through a 10 bolt with 4.10s. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
08-05-2002, 10:29 AM
#25
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. Terry,did u dyno 446 threw open headers combined w/your EWP or threw a cutout and the EWP?
I would say your car wouldve pulled about 2 to 3 more RWHP running threw 3.73's.
IMO the reason u dynoed more than me was a slightly bigger cam and alittle more CR.
Your 5.3 heads are VERY good from what I've seen on the flow bench,if done correctly they flow right in line w/a LS6 head but more cam does wonders for a LS6 head.
A 224 is good but something around 230 is better and I'm gonna find out soon.
JS
Me a cam change--->Never <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
<small>[ August 05, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: JS ]</small>
I would say your car wouldve pulled about 2 to 3 more RWHP running threw 3.73's.
IMO the reason u dynoed more than me was a slightly bigger cam and alittle more CR.
Your 5.3 heads are VERY good from what I've seen on the flow bench,if done correctly they flow right in line w/a LS6 head but more cam does wonders for a LS6 head.
A 224 is good but something around 230 is better and I'm gonna find out soon.
JS
Me a cam change--->Never <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
<small>[ August 05, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: JS ]</small>
08-05-2002, 10:49 AM
#26
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Colonel are you saying that you cannot get a LS1 head to flow as well as a LS6 head? Remember we are still limited by the LS6 INTAKE..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I'm saying that a set of fully ported LS6 heads will easily outflow a set of fully ported LS1 heads.
About the intake...
It's NOT a concrete wall type of limitation we're talking about here. It's not saying that XXX amount of HPs worth of air is all that can be sucked through them. It's also well proven that higher flowing LS1 heads make more power than lower flowing ones despite the so called intake manifold limitation. It's kinda like breathing through a straw. Sure it gets exponentially harder the more air you try to flow so you just have to suck alot harder. Well, better flowing heads, more CI, etc...make the engine suck alot harder.
Also, since we're on the subject, if a 222 cam is intake limited then what is the point of going to a 229 cam? Think of the air moving through an intake port. It goes in pulses. A longer pulse can move more air more easily than a shorter pulse. Again we see that there is no definite limitation of the intake manifold.
With enough C/R, camshaft, good enough heads, and RPM, you could make 600 RWHP NA with the LS6 intake manifold.
<small>[ August 05, 2002, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>
<strong>Colonel are you saying that you cannot get a LS1 head to flow as well as a LS6 head? Remember we are still limited by the LS6 INTAKE..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I'm saying that a set of fully ported LS6 heads will easily outflow a set of fully ported LS1 heads.
About the intake...
It's NOT a concrete wall type of limitation we're talking about here. It's not saying that XXX amount of HPs worth of air is all that can be sucked through them. It's also well proven that higher flowing LS1 heads make more power than lower flowing ones despite the so called intake manifold limitation. It's kinda like breathing through a straw. Sure it gets exponentially harder the more air you try to flow so you just have to suck alot harder. Well, better flowing heads, more CI, etc...make the engine suck alot harder.
Also, since we're on the subject, if a 222 cam is intake limited then what is the point of going to a 229 cam? Think of the air moving through an intake port. It goes in pulses. A longer pulse can move more air more easily than a shorter pulse. Again we see that there is no definite limitation of the intake manifold.
With enough C/R, camshaft, good enough heads, and RPM, you could make 600 RWHP NA with the LS6 intake manifold.
<small>[ August 05, 2002, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>
08-05-2002, 11:26 AM
#27
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. Colonel you are right if you are comparing Stage 2 LS1 Heads to Stage 2 LS6 Heads.. We are also talking about cost effectiveness.. Stage 3 LS1 heads should flow better or equal to Stage 2 LS6 heads, but should cost a little less.. 600rwhp is possible on a NA LS1 with the right cam, rpm, C/R, and a good set of heads.. Right now that is not possible because no one has even attempted to spin a street motor that high. I do not know if that is even possible at this point. What I do know is if our INTAKE was not so restrictive at this point we would already have 600rwhp NA cars with the cams, C/R, and rpm we are already using. The bigger motors do the same thing blowers do.. Push more air thru the straw... Now tell me this... If our INTAKES flowed in excess of 350cfm at this point in time on a 346ci.. Where do you think we would be dyno'ing with our current technology...? Imagine what it would do to your 422ci setup..
08-05-2002, 11:27 AM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. Vince plenty of guys have tried intake manifolds that flow 350cfm, and most pick up nothing or show a loss!
08-05-2002, 09:48 PM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>How come I read used Nascar 350ci engines putting out 600hp.. What does that equate too in rwhp? About 510rwhp.. How many LS1's H/C 346ci cars are dyno'ing that? What is the limiting factor...? The DAMN INTAKE!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it's because most of the Stage 2 setups, while geared to making big power (most trying to get 430+ at the wheels now), are still geared towards being "streetable". How must power would that Nascar engine have with A/C, power steering, and you not having to two foot it at every stoplight. On the other hand, when MOST people want more of a "race" setup, the go to a bigger CID engine, to make the most power possible. I feel this is when the intake really becomes a serious anchor in HP numbers. Granted, 346 engines could make better power with a different intake, but again, how would the car act around town? Most "street" setups require some low-mid rpm power as well as above 5000rpm. Give and take. JMO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
<strong>How come I read used Nascar 350ci engines putting out 600hp.. What does that equate too in rwhp? About 510rwhp.. How many LS1's H/C 346ci cars are dyno'ing that? What is the limiting factor...? The DAMN INTAKE!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it's because most of the Stage 2 setups, while geared to making big power (most trying to get 430+ at the wheels now), are still geared towards being "streetable". How must power would that Nascar engine have with A/C, power steering, and you not having to two foot it at every stoplight. On the other hand, when MOST people want more of a "race" setup, the go to a bigger CID engine, to make the most power possible. I feel this is when the intake really becomes a serious anchor in HP numbers. Granted, 346 engines could make better power with a different intake, but again, how would the car act around town? Most "street" setups require some low-mid rpm power as well as above 5000rpm. Give and take. JMO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
08-06-2002, 12:17 AM
#30
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Vince plenty of guys have tried intake manifolds that flow 350cfm, and most pick up nothing or show a loss! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Terry, are you saying that the LS6 intake is the best performing manifold for cars making 420+ rwhp? There is no possible manifold that will make more hp?
Richard
Richard
08-06-2002, 12:31 AM
#32
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. "Granted, 346 engines could make better power with a different intake, but again, how would the car act around town? Most "street" setups require some low-mid rpm power as well as above 5000rpm. Give and take. JMO " The 346ci would act just like a bigger engine. You just have to put the right cam in.. I would think our cars would be more efficient with more flow as well. Instead of trying to push air thru a straw.. There is a point where too much can hurt you.. We are no where close..
08-06-2002, 12:33 AM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I'm saying that a set of fully ported LS6 heads will easily outflow a set of fully ported LS1 heads</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sorry, have to disagree w/ u there. i know of a set of 4.8l heads that were finished from gtp and the worst intake valve on those set of heads was flowing 325 @ .590 lift
btw those were stage 2's 2.02in 1.57ex
<small>[ August 06, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Bout'ItZ28 ]</small>
btw those were stage 2's 2.02in 1.57ex
<small>[ August 06, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Bout'ItZ28 ]</small>
08-06-2002, 01:40 AM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bout'ItZ28:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I'm saying that a set of fully ported LS6 heads will easily outflow a set of fully ported LS1 heads</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sorry, have to disagree w/ u there. i know of a set of 4.8l heads that were finished from gtp and the worst intake valve on those set of heads was flowing 325 @ .590 lift
btw those were stage 2's 2.02in 1.57ex</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thats only half the story. Call Craig and ask him what he got out of a certain set of solid roller 6.0L heads he just finished. 300 @ .450 is INSANE! The high lift numbers were much better than similarly ported LS1 heads by GTP.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I'm saying that a set of fully ported LS6 heads will easily outflow a set of fully ported LS1 heads</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sorry, have to disagree w/ u there. i know of a set of 4.8l heads that were finished from gtp and the worst intake valve on those set of heads was flowing 325 @ .590 lift
btw those were stage 2's 2.02in 1.57ex</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thats only half the story. Call Craig and ask him what he got out of a certain set of solid roller 6.0L heads he just finished. 300 @ .450 is INSANE! The high lift numbers were much better than similarly ported LS1 heads by GTP.
08-06-2002, 02:41 AM
#36
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. All this talk about the LS6 intake being no good is crap. The ONLY intakes out there that outperform an LS6 intake are high dollar, fully ported aluminum/carb intakes that have been worked through inside and out.
The LS6 is fine for anyone under 800 rwhp IMO...
The LS6 is fine for anyone under 800 rwhp IMO...
08-06-2002, 08:08 AM
#37
Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thats only half the story. Call Craig and ask him what he got out of a certain set of solid roller 6.0L heads he just finished. 300 @ .450 is INSANE! The high lift numbers were much better than similarly ported LS1 heads by GTP.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Excellent point Nick. Since the LQ9 6.0 heads are cast the same as LS6 (except for the combustion chamber being bigger) that shows how massive the LS6 head can be made to flow down low. Craig told me they can really get some awesome stuff out of LS6 castings over 4.8/5.3/LS1 castings, they require a little bit more work he said, but as of now they are not charging for that little bit of extra work on the LS6 types.
<small>[ August 06, 2002, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: kewlbrz ]</small>
<small>[ August 06, 2002, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: kewlbrz ]</small>
08-06-2002, 09:02 AM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Terry, are you saying that the LS6 intake is the best performing manifold for cars making 420+ rwhp? There is no possible manifold that will make more hp?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no production manifold that does better. Someday someone might make something better, but from my experience the LS6 manifold does a pretty good job.
Terry, are you saying that the LS6 intake is the best performing manifold for cars making 420+ rwhp? There is no possible manifold that will make more hp?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no production manifold that does better. Someday someone might make something better, but from my experience the LS6 manifold does a pretty good job.
08-06-2002, 09:09 AM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. Guys, we can argue about head flow numbers ‘till we’re all blue in the face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
At the end of the day it’s just that - flow numbers on a flow bench.
You can’t compare numbers from one bench to another and they’re many variables that make a difference even on the same exact bench.
More importantly - once you bolt the heads on a motor and put an intake and exhaust and filter, etc… - things change…
The only way to determine what makes more power at that point is to dyno and the bottom line is: LS6 heads seem to make ~10-15rwHP more over LS1 heads on a similar setup.
Can you make similar power with LS1 heads? - I bet you can. It will require a more aggressive cam, or less restrictive exhaust, etc., but for equal setup LS6 heads seem to make more power. It’s just the way it is……. right now anyway…
Now, cost benefit – that’s another qestion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
At the end of the day it’s just that - flow numbers on a flow bench.
You can’t compare numbers from one bench to another and they’re many variables that make a difference even on the same exact bench.
More importantly - once you bolt the heads on a motor and put an intake and exhaust and filter, etc… - things change…
The only way to determine what makes more power at that point is to dyno and the bottom line is: LS6 heads seem to make ~10-15rwHP more over LS1 heads on a similar setup.
Can you make similar power with LS1 heads? - I bet you can. It will require a more aggressive cam, or less restrictive exhaust, etc., but for equal setup LS6 heads seem to make more power. It’s just the way it is……. right now anyway…
Now, cost benefit – that’s another qestion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
08-06-2002, 09:23 AM
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Re: Lets talk about the REAL benefits of going with LS6 heads over LS1 heads. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by EuG:
<strong>Guys, we can argue about head flow numbers ‘till we’re all blue in the face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
At the end of the day it’s just that - flow numbers on a flow bench.
You can’t compare numbers from one bench to another and they’re many variables that make a difference even on the same exact bench.
More importantly - once you bolt the heads on a motor and put an intake and exhaust and filter, etc… - things change…
The only way to determine what makes more power at that point is to dyno and the bottom line is: LS6 heads seem to make ~10-15rwHP more over LS1 heads on a similar setup.
Can you make similar power with LS1 heads? - I bet you can. It will require a more aggressive cam, or less restrictive exhaust, etc., but for equal setup LS6 heads seem to make more power. It’s just the way it is……. right now anyway…
Now, cost benefit – that’s another qestion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I forgot, how much is that 432 ARE superstroker putting down? Would you say the motor was cost beneficial?
<strong>Guys, we can argue about head flow numbers ‘till we’re all blue in the face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
At the end of the day it’s just that - flow numbers on a flow bench.
You can’t compare numbers from one bench to another and they’re many variables that make a difference even on the same exact bench.
More importantly - once you bolt the heads on a motor and put an intake and exhaust and filter, etc… - things change…
The only way to determine what makes more power at that point is to dyno and the bottom line is: LS6 heads seem to make ~10-15rwHP more over LS1 heads on a similar setup.
Can you make similar power with LS1 heads? - I bet you can. It will require a more aggressive cam, or less restrictive exhaust, etc., but for equal setup LS6 heads seem to make more power. It’s just the way it is……. right now anyway…
Now, cost benefit – that’s another qestion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I forgot, how much is that 432 ARE superstroker putting down? Would you say the motor was cost beneficial?