JS

iTrader: (4)

U need to realize most sponsers are scratching the surface of the LS1 engine.Its just starting to shine now.Given time ALL of the LS based heads will have there place in a HP setup.

I know the 5.3/4.8 are very close to the LS6 head in terms of dyno #.I've seen flow numbers/HP they produce.The biggest draw back is it takes alot more time to port these heads correctly.

Truthfuly u cant go wrong with any of the LS based heads,There ALL that good.But for a big motor the 6 is the way to to go and thats the real benefit of it..

This is a very good post..

JS

EuG

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I forgot, how much is that 432 ARE superstroker putting down? Would you say the motor was cost beneficial?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You seem to have something personal to prove <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Not sure where that’s coming from, but since you asked, it puts down 464rwHP/484rwTQ through cats and full exhaust tuned on 92 octane gas.
Do you know anybody else putting down a lot more through cats and full exhaust on pump gas??? I’m dying to see it.

Also I haven’t seen a lot of setups that have as good TQ curve as mine <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> :
<img src="http://www.agrnet.com:8888/Dyno/Dyno432_1.jpg" alt=" - " />
Some people actually use their cars as everyday drivers and not drag race cars….

Also realize this is a pretty old setup (over 1.5 year old) (Ls1 heads btw <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), everybody is improving their stuff and I’m sure ARE has better numbers by now as well…

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

LS6 heads are absolutely better than LS1 heads. If though our LS6 intakes are a bit restrictive you will still go faster with better flowing heads.

LS6 intakes are GREAT. LS6 heads and intakes are exceptional for stock GM production parts. We have superstrokers going 136mph @ 3000 raceweight so we are on par with racecars that for example have ported aftermarket carb intakes...

We however know we can use an even better intake... But since nobody as of yet on here has bolted on an intake and gone significantly faster our data suggests that in fact the LS6 intake is pretty good.

Vince LS6 heads can flow like 30 cfm better all thru the range.

6.0 heads are nice but in fact the combustion chamber is for a 4.000 bore and they are around 67cc's stock so the heads need a lot of milling, and then you can run into P to V issues with large duration cams and need to cut in valve reliefs into the piston tops.

I dynod 450rwhp unlocked with LS1 heads, probably would do 465rwhp or more locked.

My ARE LS6 heads are shipping in a few days... They have 11.7:1 compression vs the 10.8:1 that I have now. I'm sure to pick up and maybe hit 475rwhp locked or more. I don't really care about locked #'s since I think it's a bad idea to lock the converter.

Fenris Ulf

EuG: Looking at Tony's 434 for comparison, he is making almost 40 more rwhp than you through only one muffler on pump gas with a stronger tq curve throughout. Do you really think your cats are hurting you that much? I was not trying to make a stab, just pointing out that cost benefit doesnt seem like it would be a concern for you since you can afford the luxury of an ARE superstroker for your daily driver.

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Fenris Ulf ]</small>

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

At that power level cats ABSOLUTELY have an effect on dyno numbers!

I've seen strokers pick up 20rwhp w/o cats.

EuG

Fenris Ulf,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looking at Tony's 434 for comparison, he is making almost 40 more rwhp than you through only one muffler on pump gas with a stronger tq curve throughout.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don’t look at Tony for comparison, because there’s no comparison. The setups are so different it’s not even funny:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Old Ls1 heads for me vs. recent LS6 heads for Tony</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HUGE cam comparing to mine (236/242 .565/.567 114LS vs. 244/244 .612/.612 112LS))</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">cats vs Off road</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Vette vs F-body</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not sure on tuning, because he mentioned it’s not his daily driver anymore…</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like I said find a car (a C5 preferably) that runs cats, full exhaust (I got 2.5” mid pipes btw) and tuned to run on pump gas everyday w/o pining (not just on a dyno) and you’ll see that the huge numbers everybody likes to through around are NOT nearly as easy to get as most people are mistakenly lead to believe.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was not trying to make a stab, just pointing out that cost benefit doesnt seem like it would be a concern for you since you can afford the luxury of an ARE superstroker for your daily driver.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No problem. It’s sometimes hard to tell the tone of the post, by just reading the text and there was a lot of **** posted recently <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

At the time when I was getting my motor LS6 heads were making maybe 5rwHP over LS1 heads if that…
I would go with LS6 heads right now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Like I said find a car (a C5 preferably) that runs cats, full exhaust (I got 2.5” mid pipes btw) and tuned to run on pump gas everyday w/o pining (not just on a dyno) and you’ll see that the huge numbers everybody likes to through around are NOT nearly as easy to get as most people are mistakenly lead to believe.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've seen a couple 427ci motors @ MMS put out 500rwhp through cats/exhaust, with smaller cams to boot (229). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

EuG

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've seen a couple 427ci motors @ MMS put out 500rwhp through cats/exhaust, with smaller cams to boot (229).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The one you’re thinking of has punched cats so it’s off-road setup as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
It also has C5R block, LS6 heads and dual 3” catback….

Bout'ItZ28

iTrader: (19)

uh i guess i will keep this debate going <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

about flow #'s:
yes they vary from shop to shop but try to sell some ls1 heads w/out flow #'s. thats the first thing people look at and wont buy it if it aint any good.

about dyno #'s
yall are comparing two totally different setups when yall talk about heads. ls6 heads usually have 2.05-2.08in valves. while the norm of the ls1 heads is 2.02in. also they have more compression from the factory and are usually milled a little more. now u give a good porter (i dont know lets just say gtp <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) a set of 4.8l heads and say work your magic w/ and he will have the heads flowing the same # as ls6 heads, maybe better (w/ 2.02in valves). those would be the heads to compare b/c of the similarity in the heads as far as comp. ratio and shape of the ports. the colenel does have a point of how there more of a sucking w/ better flowing heads. but when u put the same flow #'s up againts each other w/ the same compression ratio i bet u dont pick up anything.

also speaking of y do people choose ls6 heads? basically b/c of flow #'s, or just jumping on the bandwagon b/c thats what heads u r supposed to have when doing a big motor. no shop but 1 has simulated good results from the different heads. look for example at goerge c. new motor he kept his regular gtp 4.8l heads on his 382 bore motor w/ the 2.02in 1.57ex valves. he setup seems real promising once he has all the bugs worked out of it. if u want accurate results u have to compare heads w/ the same flow #'s, comp. ratio, and same size cam as the rest

Andre

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Bout'ItZ28 ]</small>

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Go to the gym and look what happens.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> This is what it is all about.. Discussion... I have read some pretty good pros and cons on both sides, but the one above me made a good point.. Same flow #'s, same compression, better comparison.. That goes back to what I was saying about cost effective.. Will a 4.8L head work on a 434ci? Yes it will.. Can it flow as much or better than a well done port and polish LS6 head? Yes it can.. Could the people that purchased LS6 heads get the same performance out of a LS1 head? Yes they could have. Did a few good people spend more on their heads than they should have? I am going to let you answer that question. The LS6 head is nothing but a ported LS1 head from the factory. So what it has a D shape. You can come up with all the excuses why you made your decision to go LS6 all you want too. The fact of the matter is it is easier to get a head to flow 320cfm at .600 lift if GM has done 2/3's of the work for you.. The LS6 is only a better HEAD to work on for the HEAD PORTER. The consumer is only making the Head Porters job easy by purchasing the LS6 heads.. LS6 heads from the start out flows the LS1 heads by about 30cfm. So of course you are going to see a big increase from the start. A little more work from the porter and wallah.. There is no magic guys. I bet on my old setup I could have just put some LS6 heads on and dyno'd more than I have now, but I was taken by a slick talking salesperson and not a head porter.. Will I change my setup again. You bet.. Its only money right... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Damian

iTrader: (89)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Go to the gym and look what happens.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> This is what it is all about.. Discussion... I have read some pretty good pros and cons on both sides, but the one above me made a good point.. Same flow #'s, same compression, better comparison.. That goes back to what I was saying about cost effective.. Will a 4.8L head work on a 434ci? Yes it will.. Can it flow as much or better than a well done port and polish LS6 head? Yes it can.. Could the people that purchased LS6 heads get the same performance out of a LS1 head? Yes they could have. Did a few good people spend more on their heads than they should have? I am going to let you answer that question. The LS6 head is nothing but a ported LS1 head from the factory. So what it has a D shape. You can come up with all the excuses why you made your decision to go LS6 all you want too. The fact of the matter is it is easier to get a head to flow 320cfm at .600 lift if GM has done 2/3's of the work for you.. The LS6 is only a better HEAD to work on for the HEAD PORTER. The consumer is only making the Head Porters job easy by purchasing the LS6 heads.. LS6 heads from the start out flows the LS1 heads by about 30cfm. So of course you are going to see a big increase from the start. A little more work from the porter and wallah.. There is no magic guys. I bet on my old setup I could have just put some LS6 heads on and dyno'd more than I have now, but I was taken by a slick talking salesperson and not a head porter.. Will I change my setup again. You bet.. Its only money right... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />

Fenris Ulf

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Can it flow as much or better than a well done port and polish LS6 head? Yes it can.. Could the people that purchased LS6 heads get the same performance out of a LS1 head? Yes they could have. Did a few good people spend more on their heads than they should have? I am going to let you answer that question. The LS6 head is nothing but a ported LS1 head from the factory. So what it has a D shape. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Vince, there are many more differences between the LS1 and LS6 head such as short turn radii, taller intake roofs etc. Call up Craig at GTP and he will explain it to you.

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Someone has emailed me about the many differences.. I understand the differences. Is the LS6 cost effective over the LS1 cost?

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Is the LS6 cost effective over the LS1 cost?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's pretty subjective. How much are you willing to pay for the extra power?

Fenris Ulf

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Someone has emailed me about the many differences.. I understand the differences. Is the LS6 cost effective over the LS1 cost?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Subjective like Trevor said. The variance between LS1/LS6 castings really starts to show with larger bores and higher lift SR cams.

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

LOL!! What most have said is subjective.. LS1edit comes out and now we have a bunch of experts.. I am through with it..

kewlbrz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LS6 head is nothing but a ported LS1 head from the factory.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would disagree.

Some great information regarding the differences:

http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls6/page4.htm

heres some excerpts.

"Looking at these side views of the LS6 intake port (left) and the LS1 intake port, it’s very easy to see the difference in the port floors and the short-turn radii."

<img src="http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls6/images/LS6%20images/407B_8.jpg" alt=" - " />

"A vertical view of the same two intakes shows the LS6 (left) has a port that is taller at the entrance but wider in the mid-section, thus preserving cross-sectional area. The LS1 port
does not share that characteristic."

<img src="http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls6/images/LS6%20images/407B_9.jpg" alt=" - " />

Side view cuts of the LS6 (left) and LS1 exhaust ports, again, show a smoother short-turn radius. On the piece at left you can also see some of the change to the combustion chamber. Note how the chamber wall in around the spark plug has been moved in, towards the valves and the roof has been lowered.

<img src="http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls6/images/LS6%20images/407B_10.jpg" alt=" - " />

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: kewlbrz ]</small>