Visceral

iTrader: (1)

So Im ordering a big motor. I want the car as a weekend cruiser, occasional safe street racer, and most of all a great weekend track day at PIR (great road track) car.

I live in Portland, so sending the actual motor back and forth to a shop would get expensive if there are issues with the bottom end.

If you were in my position, would you get a 4.060 Iron motor (cheaper, more solid, but runs hotter and weighs about 60 lbs more, as well its *only* 408 ci ;-)), a 4.100 AL 422, a 4.125 bore 427 (ahhh... to have a real 427 camaro), or the all awesome 4.155 bore 434 (I'll call it a .030 over 427 ;-)).

I want reliability, but I have no plans for putting N2O on it, and if I did it wouldnt be more than a 150 shot. But I will be road racing on the track days... so I wont be going "easy" on it.

Thoughts?

Chris

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

In light of my current unreliability issues with the 434ci (it was experimental, remember), I'd have to say I'd have gone with something else looking back now.

I'd have opted for a 408-414ci iron block setup with a solid roller cam. For two reasons:

1. Reliability, no sleeves to take a chance with. No gasket issues either perhaps.
2. I'd like to make at least 700-800 rwhp on nitrous. I can't spray my thin sleeved 434ci reliably (its strictly an NA setup). For my short term NA goals, its a good setup, but not for my longterm high-hp goals. The iron block is simply stronger for high HP levels, period.

4.060 bore on an iron block is the upper limit as far as reliability. Just remember that the thicker you leave that cylinder wall, the more power adder potential you will have down the road.

Tony

WeatherGuy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>In light of my current unreliability issues with the 434ci (it was experimental, remember), I'd have to say I'd have gone with something else looking back now.

I'd have opted for a 408-414ci iron block setup with a solid roller cam. For two reasons:

1. Reliability, no sleeves to take a chance with. No gasket issues either perhaps.
2. I'd like to make at least 700-800 rwhp on nitrous. I can't spray my thin sleeved 434ci reliably (its strictly an NA setup). For my short term NA goals, its a good setup, but not for my longterm high-hp goals. The iron block is simply stronger for high HP levels, period.

4.060 bore on an iron block is the upper limit as far as reliability. Just remember that the thicker you leave that cylinder wall, the more power adder potential you will have down the road.

Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony, are you sure that the reliability issues you are having are related to the sleeves? I have heard rumors, but would prefer to hear it from you.

FWIW - I have had no issues with the sleeves on this new 422 block. Not a drop of coolant lost in 7 months. But I would not spray larger than a 150 shot on it.

Greg

CHRISPY

I think I would have gone with a 4.125 stroke and 4.03-4.035 bore iron block. (420-422ci)

Lots of wall thickness for spray and it should make mad torque as well. Only 70 pounds more weight (nothing a Glass hood, dynabatt and front bumper support cant fix hehe)
With good heads 500RWHP wouldnt be a problem in a six speed plus a nice 200-300 shot hehehe...
Cheers,
Chris

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Greg, I don't have any proof that it is a sleeve problem. I'm just guessing at the moment. To be fair, there are way more successful MTI sleeved motors in operation than you can imagine. I'd estimate about 200 sleeved MTI motors out there (or more) by now. You just don't hear about them unless there is a problem. You also have to remember that my particular motor is NOT the same as their usual production 422ci sleeved motor. It had some experimental sleeves and an experimental process used to insert them. Its simply a test motor, not an actual production motor. Since my motor was built, both the sleeve design and the insertion procedures have been revised a few times. The newer blocks are not the same as mine.

We are going to try like hell to get it running before the Thunder event. I've got alot to do right now.

-Tony

XtraCajunSS

iTrader: (2)

Visceral,

I would have to say I love my iron 409. Rock solid dependable in all street driving. The ONLY thing keeping me from driving it everyday is compression but that is what I asked for. I was just shocked at how well the car drives on the street. .030" over iron blocks have been done by the millions... nothing experimental there. Solid roller, no problem, I checked lash at 750 miles just for kicks, ran all the valves and had the car running in under an hour. I'd say 100% no regrets with this setup. The car runs like a baby with the full race 248* .636" lobes... 502 RWHP <img border="0" alt="[devil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" /> through the 9" 4.57 gears with no dyno tricks and 67lb rear wheels... what's not to like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

That's right, for those who were wondering, we finally got a chance to re-dyno the car with the 9" installed. We lost 21 RWHP through the 9" but I also changed to a heavier wheel so I'd say 15 RWHP difference from stock 10 bolt...

Shane

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the resposes folks.

I know that MTI is constantly refining the way they do their sleeves. I guess they have started to do the freeze/oven thing and not do so much "pressing in" like others.

I love the sound of having a 427 aluminum motor, and Im going to have to think alot before wednesday, when I should be making the commitment and having them order equipment.
Ive asked MTI for a price on a 409 solid roller to see how it fairs with the price Thunder gave me. It sounds like the 409/solid roller is almost exactly the same price as the AL427. So its not like my pocket book gets to make the decision.......

Im really excited to finally be in the financial position to make this decision.... but its pretty nerve racking when its time to commit.
Thanks all for your always good advice...

chris

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

to make the decision even tougher...

4.060 iron block with a 4.125 crank = 427
Solid roller iron 427 sounds rather stout too...

ugh.

chris

Warbird

I liked my old 422, but even better I like my 415 re-sleeved aluminum motor. 4.060" Bore, 4.000" stroke, 9:1 compression currently awaiting a T76 single turbo. On a side note my old 422 resides in another car and is still dry as a bone after 2 years. Both motors were built by ARE with their sleeve insertion process Hot/Cold and special sleeves.

I have driven the car (415) all year NA and it has operated flawlessly no leaks, no overheating, no gasket problems etc. I like the thicker liners of the 415 and the almost square dimensions. If I could start from scratch all over again this motor is the route I would go from day 1.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>You also have to remember that my particular motor is NOT the same as their usual production 422ci sleeved motor. It had some experimental sleeves and an experimental process used to insert them. Its simply a test motor, not an actual production motor. Since my motor was built, both the sleeve design and the insertion procedures have been revised a few times. The newer blocks are not the same as mine.

-Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony-
Do you know if they used the "oven the block, freeze the sleeve" insertion on your 434?
Any idea how they do it now that is different from yours?
How hard do you bang on your motor when its working 100%?

chris

EuG

I think I’d go with exact same combo again.
4.1” bore is max I’d consider and 4.125 stroke is great in a street car for extra TQ all over the range. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
For drag racing mostly I’d probably go with a 422ci (4.1” bore x 4” stroke)

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Im getting really hard to sway from a 427 AL, unless MTI can make the 415 a 427 iron motor with the 4.125" stroke. That with a pretty decent solid roller cam would be pretty stout. Maybe I wouldnt even need the solid roller setup. With the big CI engines, it doesnt seem to be getting them any more than 20 or so HP.

hrm.

chris

xxxhp

If Iam going to do it all over again, I would go with the C5-R block & make a 427 CID out of it (4.12" bore & 4" stroke). This motor will hold up for everything (i.e. N2O, FI, road racing etc..).
In fact, this is what I'll be doing soon. I know this will cost me too much $$$$$, but sending the motor back & forth is going to cost as well. My car has been down for 3 months now & I expect it to stay like that for another month or two. This is definitely not fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

The Guy in MY 99TA

I'm an IRON BLOCK fan to the end. How can you go wrong with an iron block? I'm not much on the AL motors b/c of the possibility of a leak and b/c I plan on running a high boost application one day and the AL motors won't stand up to the abuse I want to throw at them.

Josh S.

Warbird

If cost is no issue, by all means use a C5R block, but the reality is most people would rather use the added costs for other mods.

I think a slightly smaller displacment resleeved block is the way to go. After a 4.100" bore you rapidly begin to reach the point of diminishing returns. I doubt the C5R block will justify the price for both power and durabilty. I like my 415 with it's 4.060" bore and 4" stroke and it has given me absolutly no problems at all.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, sorry, but I dont have the dough for the C5R block at this juncture. Thats 4k$ more I really cant even plan on saving.

Im pretty sure that the outer diamet of the sleeves is the same 4.060 bore all the way to 4.155. What they then bore the inner bore to is what makes the displacement. If this is true, it would stand to reason that there is a safe bore where reliability is king. I think that 4.060 is really conservative, and I'm beginning to think that 4.155 is sorta pushing it. 4.125" is the magical 427, which suuuuuure is pulling me. If there are so many 4.100" bore motors out there that are happy, it would stand to reason that with these better thicker sleeves with a better insertion process at MTI could make a 4.125 bore pretty safe.

That 4.060 iron motor with a 4.125" stroke is still calling my name too. I wonder if it would make decent power though, and spin nicely. 60lbs is a pain to add, but its not a Corvette, and I can remove 60lbs with the extra $2000 pretty easily. (K-member/A-arms, 2 16 lb Sparco seats,nice battery).

Is 60lbs the sure-fire difference between iron blocks and AL blocks?

Hell, $2000 in track days and tires would make me a faster driver than putting me in a 60lb lighter car ;-)

hrm.

chris

AlienDroid

Chris at speed demon is building me a 408ci iron block for turbo app. I'd stay away from AL on a turbo car.

CHRISPY

If you are going turbo or juice (big shots or boost) a 4.030 bore would be the most reliable. With a 4.125 stroke crank it would still make ~421ci.

Lightweight hood, hawker battery and !front bumper support will more than offset the weight of the block.

Cheers,
Chris

pedaltothemetal

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by xxxhp:
<strong>If Iam going to do it all over again, I would go with the C5-R block & make a 427 CID out of it (4.12" bore & 4" stroke). This motor will hold up for everything (i.e. N2O, FI, road racing etc..).
In fact, this is what I'll be doing soon. I know this will cost me too much $$$$$, but sending the motor back & forth is going to cost as well. My car has been down for 3 months now & I expect it to stay like that for another month or two. This is definitely not fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're on the right track. My MMS C5R A4 is my daily driver, and gets 15mpg. Have almost 1000 mi in 2 weeks without a hitch.

Leo

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

certainly no turbo here....
Its all NA for me. I dont even predict much if any N2O will go into the engine. If so, I cant imagine more than a 150 shot anyways.

Imagine you want an endurance roadracing big ci LS1, and you have what should be called a fetish with the number "427". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

N2O would be kinda weird on the road track, cept for that ONE PIR front straight when you exit next to a boosted 996 TT or big $ viper... THEN it would make a lotta sense <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> ... But No, I just plan on runnign the complete snot out of a big ci motor, and Im nowhere near the shop Im ordering this from. (Not quite as bad as the fellow in Saudi, it rains alot here.)

Chris