View Poll Results: Which Lsa???
112 lsa
76
81.72%
114 lsa
17
18.28%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll
TR 224, 112 or 114 lsa
05-02-2007, 07:48 PM
#62
TECH Regular
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just want the car to behave like a complete STREET car. I don't want a race car (my car has seen the track 3 times in its 6 year life). I just want something that behaves well.....but it's always nice to have a little punch!
05-02-2007, 08:06 PM
#63
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
here is a link of people arguing over the same thing we were.It appears that 112LSA will make more peak torque(total torque)than a 114 LSA.However,the 114 LSA provides a better idle and peaks lower in the power band than the 112 LSA as I stated.More overlap increases mid to upper rpm power but idle and low rpm power is generally but not always increases with less overlap and a wider LSA.https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/377053-112-vs-114-lsa-difference.html
05-02-2007, 08:11 PM
#64
Registered User
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BTR, La
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
124 people disagree with you and 38 people according to that link (poll).
Does that not tell you anything? Did you read the example I posted about the 221/221 cam, again my post coincides with the 124 correct people who have voted in that poll. Your views are shared by the other 38 people.
Ben T.
Does that not tell you anything? Did you read the example I posted about the 221/221 cam, again my post coincides with the 124 correct people who have voted in that poll. Your views are shared by the other 38 people.
Ben T.
05-02-2007, 08:17 PM
#65
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Studytime
124 people disagree with you and 38 people according to that link (poll).
Does that not tell you anything? Did you read the example I posted about the 221/221 cam, again my post coincides with the 124 correct people who have voted in that poll. Your views are shared by the other 38 people.
Ben T.
Does that not tell you anything? Did you read the example I posted about the 221/221 cam, again my post coincides with the 124 correct people who have voted in that poll. Your views are shared by the other 38 people.
Ben T.
I dont care what people on here say.Do you want to call Holley,Chevy high performance,and other reputable sources they do not know what they are talking about.Right along with Tom Giles who is one of the top ASE certified master auto techs in the world he is wrong.I have his automotive technology textbook that states more overlap typically results in increased top end and lowered low end performance.It appears most of the educated people in the posted link above agree with my theory.I believe you are basing your argument off of a 224 cam 112 and 114 lSA instead of research and typical results of increased overlap.I am tired of this subject,but I do stand firm.Just saying...Say a narrower LSA cam such as a 110 or 112 compared to the 114 does make more low end as you claim.If it does it is not typical and it relates more to IVC
Last edited by lovescamaros28; 05-02-2007 at 08:37 PM.
05-02-2007, 08:30 PM
#66
Registered User
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BTR, La
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll agree with more overlap usually meaning more topend, but I won't with the rest of your posts. Don't you realize THIS very thread is about a 224/224 cam? That's why my comments are based on taht size of camshaft.
That text book siting in front of you does explain the substance of a lot of your posts however.
I'm through with this thread- I guess I have decided to remain ignorant.
Ben T.
That text book siting in front of you does explain the substance of a lot of your posts however.
I'm through with this thread- I guess I have decided to remain ignorant.
Ben T.
05-02-2007, 08:32 PM
#67
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am done also.However,I do agree with you on the head theory.That a higher compression ratio will not always increase the chance of detonation but can decrease the chance of detonation because of quench...Thanks for that.I think for the most part our disagreement was based on a misunderstanding of what we was getting at.As far as the text comment goes I love to read,research,and wrench on cars and military vehicles alike.I really dont have much of a choice being a 63B Lightwheel Mechanic in the US Army.
Last edited by lovescamaros28; 05-02-2007 at 08:45 PM.
05-03-2007, 12:24 AM
#68
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by lovescamaros28
I just believe a lot of people,other than the exception of professionals fall under false beliefs and mis-conception.It all goes back to BIBS.
Too much overlap hurts at certain levels depending on a variety of parameters, such as head design, intake design, etc....But we are talking huge overlap
You are generalizing the overlap statement by those links.
A TR224 112 will make more undercurve power than a 114
A TR224 110 will make more undercurve power than a 112 or 114
This has to do with valve events, which will dictate overlap.
I am done also.However,I do agree with you on the head theory.That a higher compression ratio will not always increase the chance of detonation but can decrease the chance of detonation because of quench...
1- Static
2-Dynamic
The Dynamic compression is the one to watch for according to fuel used. That is dictated by various parameters and heavily affected by cam events.
Quench= Piston deck value - compressed gasket thickness.
tighter quench will reduce detonnation, in LSx motors some heads have 1 quench area and some have two. Detonnation is reduced due to better combustion efficiency and flame travel.
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; 05-03-2007 at 12:40 AM.
05-03-2007, 08:08 AM
#69
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
I think you're relying too much on what you are reading.
Too much overlap hurts at certain levels depending on a variety of parameters, such as head design, intake design, etc....But we are talking huge overlap
You are generalizing the overlap statement by those links.
A TR224 112 will make more undercurve power than a 114
A TR224 110 will make more undercurve power than a 112 or 114
This has to do with valve events, which will dictate overlap.
Actually this is what I have been trying to say.Typically(as in usually),more or excessive overlap will kill low end torque.Going back to the original argument.When it was posted that narrower LSA=more low end.I posted that it was incorrect,and typically a narrower LSA=less low end,but not always...as in the 112 114 example.I think this debate has just got blown out of proportion.I think you need to go back to my original post,and see what you all began arguing.
There 2 compression ratios in a motor:
1- Static
2-Dynamic
The Dynamic compression is the one to watch for according to fuel used. That is dictated by various parameters and heavily affected by cam events.
Quench= Piston deck value - compressed gasket thickness.
tighter quench will reduce detonnation, in LSx motors some heads have 1 quench area and some have two. Detonnation is reduced due to better combustion efficiency and flame travel.
Too much overlap hurts at certain levels depending on a variety of parameters, such as head design, intake design, etc....But we are talking huge overlap
You are generalizing the overlap statement by those links.
A TR224 112 will make more undercurve power than a 114
A TR224 110 will make more undercurve power than a 112 or 114
This has to do with valve events, which will dictate overlap.
Actually this is what I have been trying to say.Typically(as in usually),more or excessive overlap will kill low end torque.Going back to the original argument.When it was posted that narrower LSA=more low end.I posted that it was incorrect,and typically a narrower LSA=less low end,but not always...as in the 112 114 example.I think this debate has just got blown out of proportion.I think you need to go back to my original post,and see what you all began arguing.
There 2 compression ratios in a motor:
1- Static
2-Dynamic
The Dynamic compression is the one to watch for according to fuel used. That is dictated by various parameters and heavily affected by cam events.
Quench= Piston deck value - compressed gasket thickness.
tighter quench will reduce detonnation, in LSx motors some heads have 1 quench area and some have two. Detonnation is reduced due to better combustion efficiency and flame travel.
To go off topic a bit...If you want to get technical that squish/quench area is called a wedge.That is why it is called a wedge type head.Unlikes a Hemispherical head which does not have a squish quench area.That is why they are more prone to detonation than the wedge head.Turbulent combustion chambers have a wedge(quench area),that allows for cooling off the air/fuel mixture resulting in less chance of detonation,and better combustion because of the turbulence.Turbulence at high speeds can result in air/fuel seperation at high rpms.The Hemi is more efficient for High speeds.The Hemi also uses a more centered spark plug that spreads the flame front more evenly through the cylinder.I may have been pointless,but still some good info to think about since everyone wants to be technical.
Last edited by lovescamaros28; 05-03-2007 at 08:27 AM.
05-03-2007, 08:09 AM
#70
TECH Regular
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
A TR224 112 will make more undercurve power than a 114
A TR224 110 will make more undercurve power than a 112 or 114
A TR224 110 will make more undercurve power than a 112 or 114
05-03-2007, 11:35 AM
#72
Registered User
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BTR, La
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by lovescamaros28
Actually this is what I have been trying to say.Typically(as in usually),more or excessive overlap will kill low end torque.Going back to the original argument.When it was posted that narrower LSA=more low end.I posted that it was incorrect,and typically a narrower LSA=less low end,but not always...as in the 112 114 example.I think this debate has just got blown out of proportion.I think you need to go back to my original post,and see what you all began arguing.
To go off topic a bit...If you want to get technical that squish/quench area is called a wedge.That is why it is called a wedge type head.Unlikes a Hemispherical head which does not have a squish quench area.That is why they are more prone to detonation than the wedge head.Turbulent combustion chambers have a wedge(quench area),that allows for cooling off the air/fuel mixture resulting in less chance of detonation,and better combustion because of the turbulence.Turbulence at high speeds can result in air/fuel seperation at high rpms.The Hemi is more efficient for High speeds.The Hemi also uses a more centered spark plug that spreads the flame front more evenly through the cylinder.I may have been pointless,but still some good info to think about since everyone wants to be technical.
To go off topic a bit...If you want to get technical that squish/quench area is called a wedge.That is why it is called a wedge type head.Unlikes a Hemispherical head which does not have a squish quench area.That is why they are more prone to detonation than the wedge head.Turbulent combustion chambers have a wedge(quench area),that allows for cooling off the air/fuel mixture resulting in less chance of detonation,and better combustion because of the turbulence.Turbulence at high speeds can result in air/fuel seperation at high rpms.The Hemi is more efficient for High speeds.The Hemi also uses a more centered spark plug that spreads the flame front more evenly through the cylinder.I may have been pointless,but still some good info to think about since everyone wants to be technical.
05-03-2007, 05:31 PM
#73
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by oange ss
increased quench or "wedge" provides faster flame propagation, decreasing the time for and chances of knock, it doesnt cool it off.....
I am 100% right on what I posted here:Turbulent combustion chambers have a wedge(quench area),that allows for cooling of the air/fuel mixture.The cooling effect is caused by a rapid swirling motion which is turbulence.
Last edited by lovescamaros28; 05-03-2007 at 05:37 PM.
05-03-2007, 05:33 PM
#74
TECH Regular
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by oange ss
increased quench or "wedge" provides faster flame propagation, decreasing the time for and chances of knock, it doesnt cool it off.....
On many engines, a squish or quench area is used to negate combustion in certain areas to avoid knock. By having a matched area where the piston and combustion chamber come in close proximity at TDC,(((the gasses are kept cool enough so that they will not ignite until the piston has moved down the bore and cylinder volumes are increasing.)))((( This keeps the rate of pressure rise below the knock limit.))) Some people are dismayed when they install a thicker head gasket to lower the CR and have knocking worse than before. This is because they have negated the designed-in quench effect. A large squish area also tends to promote increased chamber turbulence which is important for mixing and power at high rpm.
Here is a link for the above.Funny,how I am always finding something on the web to back me up.http://toyotaperformance.com/ign_combust.htm
Even the above link probably will not sway some peoples opinion.As a matter of a fact,it seems even if I say a zebra is black and white,somebody is going to try to contradict me and say...you are wrong,a zebra is white and black.By the way.what is an oange ss?
Last edited by lovescamaros28; 05-03-2007 at 09:32 PM.
05-04-2007, 04:01 AM
#76
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by blackmaro99
So what would be the disadvantages of picking TR224 110 over TR224 112 if your goal is power under the curve?
On a 346 with proper supporting mods, the loss or "shift" of low>midrange power with high overlap doesn't really start to be pronounced till ~ over 15* overlap. (notice ~ {aproximate})
I have a graph of a XE Comp 224/224 110+4 that makes 400/400 (rwhp/trq) on a bolt on 346 with stage 1 241 ported heads.
05-04-2007, 04:31 AM
#77
Teching In
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I mostly just lurk on these boards, but I think that the source of contention between the fellow saying that more overlap kills low end, and the majority that says more overlap increases low end is this:
1) If the overlap is coming purely from a tighter LSA (112) on a cam of FIXED duration, like the TR224 example here, then it will INCREASE low end, and make just about the same peak power. I've seen dyno plots of this on this very board, and here is a link. The blue curve is the 112, and the other two are repeat runs of the 114. Point proven
http://www.ls2.com/boggs/cam/MTIStg1+112+vs+114.jpg
2)Now, if the overlap is coming from an increase in DURATION, like comparing the power curve of a 228/228,.56/.56,112 vs a 224/224,112,.56/.56 cam, then yes, the increased overalp will result in LESS low end, but more upper mid to high end torque.
These are facts. You can't argue them. Now can't we all just get along
Oh, and here is my question on this cam. I have a BONE stock 2002 Z06, and I also want a cam that will add as much power as possible, without ANY compromise to driveability(NO BUCKING), and be nearly indistinguishable from the stock idle. Would I want the 224/224,.58/.58, 114 over the TR224, 114 flavor, or do I need to go even lower to a TR220 ish cam, to truly remove ALL HINTS OF SURGING/BUCKING/DYING yada yada.
Thanks.
1) If the overlap is coming purely from a tighter LSA (112) on a cam of FIXED duration, like the TR224 example here, then it will INCREASE low end, and make just about the same peak power. I've seen dyno plots of this on this very board, and here is a link. The blue curve is the 112, and the other two are repeat runs of the 114. Point proven
http://www.ls2.com/boggs/cam/MTIStg1+112+vs+114.jpg2)Now, if the overlap is coming from an increase in DURATION, like comparing the power curve of a 228/228,.56/.56,112 vs a 224/224,112,.56/.56 cam, then yes, the increased overalp will result in LESS low end, but more upper mid to high end torque.
These are facts. You can't argue them. Now can't we all just get along
Oh, and here is my question on this cam. I have a BONE stock 2002 Z06, and I also want a cam that will add as much power as possible, without ANY compromise to driveability(NO BUCKING), and be nearly indistinguishable from the stock idle. Would I want the 224/224,.58/.58, 114 over the TR224, 114 flavor, or do I need to go even lower to a TR220 ish cam, to truly remove ALL HINTS OF SURGING/BUCKING/DYING yada yada.
Thanks.
Last edited by Quaternion; 05-09-2007 at 11:13 AM.
