View Poll Results: Which heads would you prefer?
PRC 200CC Terminator Heads (milled or not)
27
20.93%
AFR 205's (milled or not)
90
69.77%
other (why)
12
9.30%
Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll
Cylinder heads poll: AFR vs. Terminators
09-12-2007, 07:05 AM
#81
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Huh? So you swapped to a set of AFRs I assume? Other shops have had excellent success with the terms, not just in Texas. One guy in my area put down 495-ish with them, and I didn't fair too bad considering my other mods. I wouldn't blame the heads, per say.
09-12-2007, 09:26 AM
#82
Perhaps your not familiar with my story. I bought a set of Terms. Put down a certain number. Added a FAST90 intake and EWP and gained absolutely nothing.
DO some research and the mismatch of the intake port of the head is huge. Consult with a bunch of dedicated head builders and none of them like what they see as far as the mismatch goes. Consult with TSP and they are satisfied that there is nothing wrong.
In my experience in the past 3 years or so on this board and others it has been my experience that dyno numbers from the state of Texas have never been matched anywhere else so........... I find it hard to believe that your friend put down 495-ish. I say bullshit. To many dyno urban legends.
My educated on this board about incredulous dyno numbers sense tells me that your 495'ish is about as accurate as looking up at the sun to tell time.
Theres another shop claiming hi dyno results as well, there have been people who did not see the same results.
When you have cars in different corners of the country or world putting up the same numbers then you have statement with some accuracy and fact behind it. When you have just a few cars and only in certain parts of this country putting up incredible numbers, its not so much fact as it is bullshit. This is the internet. You can manipulate what ever you want to show what ever you want. If you cant see it in person how in the hell are you going to know if it's true.
Well I bought a set of them and found out for myself.
Some people also dont like showing that they made a $1899 mistake.
They're embarassed by it and wont tell the truth thinking its them and not the product.
DO some research and the mismatch of the intake port of the head is huge. Consult with a bunch of dedicated head builders and none of them like what they see as far as the mismatch goes. Consult with TSP and they are satisfied that there is nothing wrong.
In my experience in the past 3 years or so on this board and others it has been my experience that dyno numbers from the state of Texas have never been matched anywhere else so........... I find it hard to believe that your friend put down 495-ish. I say bullshit. To many dyno urban legends.
My educated on this board about incredulous dyno numbers sense tells me that your 495'ish is about as accurate as looking up at the sun to tell time.
Theres another shop claiming hi dyno results as well, there have been people who did not see the same results.
When you have cars in different corners of the country or world putting up the same numbers then you have statement with some accuracy and fact behind it. When you have just a few cars and only in certain parts of this country putting up incredible numbers, its not so much fact as it is bullshit. This is the internet. You can manipulate what ever you want to show what ever you want. If you cant see it in person how in the hell are you going to know if it's true.
Well I bought a set of them and found out for myself.
Some people also dont like showing that they made a $1899 mistake.
They're embarassed by it and wont tell the truth thinking its them and not the product.
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 09-12-2007 at 09:34 AM.
09-12-2007, 09:55 AM
#83
Honestly I don't even think it's worth discussing this with you anymore. Have you ever seen anyone else online complain about results from terminators?
I think anyone with common sense & a ability to use the search button will find that Terminators make great power EVERYWHERE in the country..
Anyone interested in Terminators or AFR heads just do a simple search. I think you'll find tons of happy customers using both cylinder heads......
I think anyone with common sense & a ability to use the search button will find that Terminators make great power EVERYWHERE in the country..
Anyone interested in Terminators or AFR heads just do a simple search. I think you'll find tons of happy customers using both cylinder heads......
Originally Posted by 99blancoSS
Perhaps your not familiar with my story. I bought a set of Terms. Put down a certain number. Added a FAST90 intake and EWP and gained absolutely nothing.
DO some research and the mismatch of the intake port of the head is huge. Consult with a bunch of dedicated head builders and none of them like what they see as far as the mismatch goes. Consult with TSP and they are satisfied that there is nothing wrong.
In my experience in the past 3 years or so on this board and others it has been my experience that dyno numbers from the state of Texas have never been matched anywhere else so........... I find it hard to believe that your friend put down 495-ish. I say bullshit. To many dyno urban legends.
My educated on this board about incredulous dyno numbers sense tells me that your 495'ish is about as accurate as looking up at the sun to tell time.
Theres another shop claiming hi dyno results as well, there have been people who did not see the same results.
When you have cars in different corners of the country or world putting up the same numbers then you have statement with some accuracy and fact behind it. When you have just a few cars and only in certain parts of this country putting up incredible numbers, its not so much fact as it is bullshit. This is the internet. You can manipulate what ever you want to show what ever you want. If you cant see it in person how in the hell are you going to know if it's true.
Well I bought a set of them and found out for myself.
Some people also dont like showing that they made a $1899 mistake.
They're embarassed by it and wont tell the truth thinking its them and not the product.
DO some research and the mismatch of the intake port of the head is huge. Consult with a bunch of dedicated head builders and none of them like what they see as far as the mismatch goes. Consult with TSP and they are satisfied that there is nothing wrong.
In my experience in the past 3 years or so on this board and others it has been my experience that dyno numbers from the state of Texas have never been matched anywhere else so........... I find it hard to believe that your friend put down 495-ish. I say bullshit. To many dyno urban legends.
My educated on this board about incredulous dyno numbers sense tells me that your 495'ish is about as accurate as looking up at the sun to tell time.
Theres another shop claiming hi dyno results as well, there have been people who did not see the same results.
When you have cars in different corners of the country or world putting up the same numbers then you have statement with some accuracy and fact behind it. When you have just a few cars and only in certain parts of this country putting up incredible numbers, its not so much fact as it is bullshit. This is the internet. You can manipulate what ever you want to show what ever you want. If you cant see it in person how in the hell are you going to know if it's true.
Well I bought a set of them and found out for myself.
Some people also dont like showing that they made a $1899 mistake.
They're embarassed by it and wont tell the truth thinking its them and not the product.
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
09-12-2007, 10:22 AM
#85
haha... I'm embarrassed for you with that post. I'm assuming by the "dyno numbers in Texas" you are referring to TSP. Anytime you want to come watch a dyno with Terminators or any other car you might want to call B.S., pack a lunch and book a ticket and come on down. We'll be more than happy to pick you up at the airport. I can't imagine why you are now on a TSP hating kick. I can only assume someone else is giving you the a better deal now...
09-12-2007, 10:33 AM
#86
What is this 13-15 yr old hour? Sorry boys stop watching the WWE, tag teaming is just another example of your unprofessionalism. BY my dyno comment I was very specific with what I meant. Incredulous numbers from certain geographic areas of the country.
The port mismatch with a fast90 is tremendous. Have you addressed it yet? What was your plan for me when I called and told you guys my results? What did you do for me?
Not a ******* thing! I put a Fast 90 and EWP and gained nothing and you guys had nothing to say about it, except sweep me under the rug.
I have always supported you until that point and I always say you guys have the best prices. Jon do you really think AFR gave me a better deal ?? That was a pathetic comment.
Look at the poll. What do you see? I see an informed public making the right choice.
I learned from experience.
I called a bunch fo different head builders and asked them what to do. You guys werent helping me so I had to try and do something about the head myself. The best thing that was thought of was to epoxy them. No one and I mean no one thought anything good of the port mistmatch.
I went with the vendor who didnt put down other vendors, who took the time to explain the science of things. Someone who wasnt concerned about underselling as much as quality. Someone who through years of testing developed their product, not had money and bought a cnc maching and started pumping out heads has fast as they can only to have quality control issues. How many ls6 heads broke before you fixed that problem and learned that you cant hog them out to 2mm thickness? TSP has been learning as they go and have had good results in some areas and not so good in others.
I was an unsatisfied customer and it wouldnt have taken much to make me happy. You did nothing. Good prices though and I have no regret of steering people your way and still do for your pricing is the best. Your ls6 head is good as well now that you've improved the breakage problem, I know someone who swears by them and puts them on many Vettes. Maybe if I had gone that route I'd still be a customer. But I went the much hyped Term route and got hosed. AT least I was able to sell them. Took a hosing on it but at least I got $1250.
I'm not looking to get into a post war with you guys, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut when someone asks either.
Address the port mismatch with a fast90. Do you know how? IS it the CNC program or did Edlebrock screw the pooch on it?
The port mismatch with a fast90 is tremendous. Have you addressed it yet? What was your plan for me when I called and told you guys my results? What did you do for me?
Not a ******* thing! I put a Fast 90 and EWP and gained nothing and you guys had nothing to say about it, except sweep me under the rug.
I have always supported you until that point and I always say you guys have the best prices. Jon do you really think AFR gave me a better deal ?? That was a pathetic comment.
Look at the poll. What do you see? I see an informed public making the right choice.
I learned from experience.
I called a bunch fo different head builders and asked them what to do. You guys werent helping me so I had to try and do something about the head myself. The best thing that was thought of was to epoxy them. No one and I mean no one thought anything good of the port mistmatch.
I went with the vendor who didnt put down other vendors, who took the time to explain the science of things. Someone who wasnt concerned about underselling as much as quality. Someone who through years of testing developed their product, not had money and bought a cnc maching and started pumping out heads has fast as they can only to have quality control issues. How many ls6 heads broke before you fixed that problem and learned that you cant hog them out to 2mm thickness? TSP has been learning as they go and have had good results in some areas and not so good in others.
I was an unsatisfied customer and it wouldnt have taken much to make me happy. You did nothing. Good prices though and I have no regret of steering people your way and still do for your pricing is the best. Your ls6 head is good as well now that you've improved the breakage problem, I know someone who swears by them and puts them on many Vettes. Maybe if I had gone that route I'd still be a customer. But I went the much hyped Term route and got hosed. AT least I was able to sell them. Took a hosing on it but at least I got $1250.
I'm not looking to get into a post war with you guys, but I'm not going to keep my mouth shut when someone asks either.
Address the port mismatch with a fast90. Do you know how? IS it the CNC program or did Edlebrock screw the pooch on it?
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 09-12-2007 at 10:48 AM.
09-12-2007, 11:11 AM
#87
Staging Lane
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lol, this really isn't my battle but you did call me out on the 495 so I figured I'd back that up. And he isn't my "friend", never claimed he was, just someone in my area, as being a couple states away from Texas and Texas Speed for that matter.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...rminator+heads
Thats the link to all the information you'd need. As far as the port mismatch, it doesn't seem to cause me or anyone else for that matter any real problems. All I'm saying is I don't think the heads are your problem. But hey, since you swapped for AFR's I'd buy the terms off yah
I need a set for my C5
nevermind, i see you already sold them
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...rminator+heads
Thats the link to all the information you'd need. As far as the port mismatch, it doesn't seem to cause me or anyone else for that matter any real problems. All I'm saying is I don't think the heads are your problem. But hey, since you swapped for AFR's I'd buy the terms off yah
I need a set for my C5 nevermind, i see you already sold them
09-12-2007, 11:12 AM
#88
TECH Enthusiast
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I think AFR's have an outstanding head and great customer service.
My experience with TSP and the Terminators Heads have been far more positive. In my case I did buy a ticket and had it tuned and dyno'ed in Texas. No BS. My experience was quite positive.
I re-dynoed in Denver and the results were nearly identical. And for being on top of a mountain, the track times /mph are respectable.
I understand your frustration. With my set-up I stayed with the LS6 intake.
I think the poll reflects AFR's popularity and great product. While I totally understand the frustration of not having a paticular product work out, I just wanted to comment that my experience with the Terminator Heads and TSP was far more positive.
Thanks. Hope everything works out..WeathermanShawn..
My experience with TSP and the Terminators Heads have been far more positive. In my case I did buy a ticket and had it tuned and dyno'ed in Texas. No BS. My experience was quite positive.
I re-dynoed in Denver and the results were nearly identical. And for being on top of a mountain, the track times /mph are respectable.
I understand your frustration. With my set-up I stayed with the LS6 intake.
I think the poll reflects AFR's popularity and great product. While I totally understand the frustration of not having a paticular product work out, I just wanted to comment that my experience with the Terminator Heads and TSP was far more positive.
Thanks. Hope everything works out..WeathermanShawn..
09-12-2007, 11:29 AM
#89
Weatherman , not disrespect to you at all but your numbers arent that impressive. Please dont take that the wrong way. I'm sure your car is a heck of a lot of fun to drive.
They are better than what I put up and I had a bigger cam and kooks stepped headers.
I put down 410 added a fast90 and EWP and gained not a thing. Actualy lost power.
I spoke with everyone that would listen to me and they all said the same.
As soon as I'm done tuning and dyno I'll post. Only change that was made was the heads.
They are better than what I put up and I had a bigger cam and kooks stepped headers.
I put down 410 added a fast90 and EWP and gained not a thing. Actualy lost power.
I spoke with everyone that would listen to me and they all said the same.
As soon as I'm done tuning and dyno I'll post. Only change that was made was the heads.
09-12-2007, 11:32 AM
#90
I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this subject. No one tried to sweep you under the rug. That comment, along with most of the other ones in your post, are flat out ridiculous! I don't know what you want us to do. I can only do so much trouble-shooting over the phone. At some point you would have had to bring the car to us. If that was not an option, then you have to look over everything yourself and help diagnose the problem. I doubt you or anyone else can find the problem on a car that you have never seen or did not do the work on. The Terminators have shown consistent, excellent results. Our post-sale service is one of the reasons customers come back to us. We help in every way possible, but we're still limited to what we can do when we do not have a vehicle in front of us. As for the LS6 heads, how many did we replace for customers at no charge? I see how you think our post-sale service is lacking. 
We lost thousands of dollars helping customers out. TSP is not the only one that has had an issue. I vaguely remember another cylinder head vendor recalling heads for valve issues. What's my point? Nobody is perfect. We addressed the issues the best way we knew how, just as any vendor would do. We did not tell everyone "too bad, buy another set". I would also like to know what vendor we "put down".
TSP has always been about customer service. We always have and will continue to offer quality parts, great prices, and customer support. There are thousands of people on this board and others that will attest to that. If you wish to continue this discussion, feel free to give us a call, e-mail, or PM us.
Jon Reynolds
Texas Speed & Perf.
We lost thousands of dollars helping customers out. TSP is not the only one that has had an issue. I vaguely remember another cylinder head vendor recalling heads for valve issues. What's my point? Nobody is perfect. We addressed the issues the best way we knew how, just as any vendor would do. We did not tell everyone "too bad, buy another set". I would also like to know what vendor we "put down". TSP has always been about customer service. We always have and will continue to offer quality parts, great prices, and customer support. There are thousands of people on this board and others that will attest to that. If you wish to continue this discussion, feel free to give us a call, e-mail, or PM us.
Jon Reynolds
Texas Speed & Perf.
09-12-2007, 11:49 AM
#91
Jon I know the difference. Did you ever flow a set after milling them like you said you guys were going to and get back to me?
Maybe between the milling and the mismatch lies the problem. Maybe they dont flow the same after milling them and then mating them to a 90? Have you looked at that or have you guys just decided that because you have good results from others no need to investigate it further? I'm not the only one who didnt have good results.
You lost money replacing heads because you guys were responsible for it. You cnc'ed the crap out of the runner to the point the material was to thin to support the rockers anymore. You were totally liable so dont make it out that you stepped up and went above and beyond because all you did was fix your mistake. Yes that was very good of you to not make anyone sue you to fix the problem.
What is with you guys and your word plays?
Your customer service isn't why people come to you, its your prices. There are plenty of threads of people who werent happy with your CS. Ridiculous? I think not.
I have no reason to lie or exagerate. I'm not selling anything here I have no ulterior motive. Can you say the same?
You guys are getting ridiculous. Jason throws up replys to discredit Patriot just to make a sale. He knows he wasnt comparing apples to apples he's just hoping that newbies dont know the difference. You guys need to cut the bullshit.
I'm out of this thread. I'll post my results like I said with my term numbers right next my new numbers and we'll see. IF I dont make anymore power then I'll appologize to you guys on here in a special thread.
I've sold a lot for you guys, more than you know. My threads from my 5.3 heads vs tea's did a lot for your business. The tuner who tuned it uses your ls6 heads exclusively and puts them on as many vettes as he can. It his first choice when someone asks. You owe that to me.
Dont **** with me, you know I'm not lying or exagerating about anything.
Maybe between the milling and the mismatch lies the problem. Maybe they dont flow the same after milling them and then mating them to a 90? Have you looked at that or have you guys just decided that because you have good results from others no need to investigate it further? I'm not the only one who didnt have good results.
You lost money replacing heads because you guys were responsible for it. You cnc'ed the crap out of the runner to the point the material was to thin to support the rockers anymore. You were totally liable so dont make it out that you stepped up and went above and beyond because all you did was fix your mistake. Yes that was very good of you to not make anyone sue you to fix the problem.
What is with you guys and your word plays?
Your customer service isn't why people come to you, its your prices. There are plenty of threads of people who werent happy with your CS. Ridiculous? I think not.
I have no reason to lie or exagerate. I'm not selling anything here I have no ulterior motive. Can you say the same?
You guys are getting ridiculous. Jason throws up replys to discredit Patriot just to make a sale. He knows he wasnt comparing apples to apples he's just hoping that newbies dont know the difference. You guys need to cut the bullshit.
I'm out of this thread. I'll post my results like I said with my term numbers right next my new numbers and we'll see. IF I dont make anymore power then I'll appologize to you guys on here in a special thread.
I've sold a lot for you guys, more than you know. My threads from my 5.3 heads vs tea's did a lot for your business. The tuner who tuned it uses your ls6 heads exclusively and puts them on as many vettes as he can. It his first choice when someone asks. You owe that to me.
Dont **** with me, you know I'm not lying or exagerating about anything.
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 09-12-2007 at 11:56 AM.
09-12-2007, 12:20 PM
#93
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...rminator+heads
I think this speaks for itself...
There's tons of great Terminator results on ls1tech!
I look forward to your call if you'd like to discuss the matter further.
I think this speaks for itself...
There's tons of great Terminator results on ls1tech!
I look forward to your call if you'd like to discuss the matter further.
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
09-12-2007, 12:36 PM
#94
Staging Lane
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99blancoss:
Talk about 13 year old bullshit! Dude you are an idiot! You don't even know if there is a problem with the heads yet. This will be hilarious if you pick up 5 RWHP!
I can't believe you actually threaten a Sponsor on this board and aren't banned yet. You deserve to be the way you are acting like a tool on here. Then you actually think they owe you something... Yeah right. They didn't touch your car and it is their fault you car doesn't make any power. How does that make sense? If everyone else makes good power with those heads, maybe the problem is in the mirror. Anyone with a brain knows you can't go after performance car companies for parts failures or problems. (Especially in this case when they didn't touch the car.) It's an aftermarket part. If you wanted a warranty or guarantee, YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT IT ALONE!!!!
Maybe this isn't my place being a mustang guy but I do know a bit about the LS1 stuff. My buddy in Amarillo put down big numbers with the Terminator heads from PRC. Something like 480+ RWHP if memory serves me correctly. Everything I have seen on the heads seems to be positive. I have been on the dyno at TSP a couple times and have seen first hand how hard those guys work to make customers happy. I will be going to them when I do my LSx conversion in my stang!
Just my .02...
Talk about 13 year old bullshit! Dude you are an idiot! You don't even know if there is a problem with the heads yet. This will be hilarious if you pick up 5 RWHP!
I can't believe you actually threaten a Sponsor on this board and aren't banned yet. You deserve to be the way you are acting like a tool on here. Then you actually think they owe you something... Yeah right. They didn't touch your car and it is their fault you car doesn't make any power. How does that make sense? If everyone else makes good power with those heads, maybe the problem is in the mirror. Anyone with a brain knows you can't go after performance car companies for parts failures or problems. (Especially in this case when they didn't touch the car.) It's an aftermarket part. If you wanted a warranty or guarantee, YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT IT ALONE!!!!
Maybe this isn't my place being a mustang guy but I do know a bit about the LS1 stuff. My buddy in Amarillo put down big numbers with the Terminator heads from PRC. Something like 480+ RWHP if memory serves me correctly. Everything I have seen on the heads seems to be positive. I have been on the dyno at TSP a couple times and have seen first hand how hard those guys work to make customers happy. I will be going to them when I do my LSx conversion in my stang!
Just my .02...
09-12-2007, 08:21 PM
#95
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No offense taken, 99BlancoSS. Believe me, I have had my share of disappointments and dissatisfactions on part selection and performance. I have also had my fair share of disputes. Even though I understand your frustration, I guess my style has been to solve any disputes privately and still have the respect of the merchant or sponser.
But that took me a few years to learn. In any case I wish you the best of luck. Looking at your web page, it definitely looks like you have a very nice ride, and you just want the best performance for your dollar.
Yes, my setup is geared more for the street and to overcome the inevitable loss of power at higher altitudes. I went for HP/TQ in the low and middle rpm's.
My point is that the smaller runner and higher compression heads have worked for me. In your case it did not. But if you are not 100% certain that it is the heads or the merchant's fault, I think you have to be very careful any time you accuse someone. It can damage their reputation and business and if you are wrong, then it is very hard to undo the damage.
Good luck, no offense taken here. Let us know how it goes..WeathermanShawn..
But that took me a few years to learn. In any case I wish you the best of luck. Looking at your web page, it definitely looks like you have a very nice ride, and you just want the best performance for your dollar.
Yes, my setup is geared more for the street and to overcome the inevitable loss of power at higher altitudes. I went for HP/TQ in the low and middle rpm's.
My point is that the smaller runner and higher compression heads have worked for me. In your case it did not. But if you are not 100% certain that it is the heads or the merchant's fault, I think you have to be very careful any time you accuse someone. It can damage their reputation and business and if you are wrong, then it is very hard to undo the damage.
Good luck, no offense taken here. Let us know how it goes..WeathermanShawn..
