Magic Stick 4 problems? In here plz.
Magic Stick 4 problems? In here plz. I had a Magic Stick 4 in my '04 GTO for about a month, everything worked, ran fine, etc. Made 376/338 on a low-reading Mustang after a tune. Then one day, cruising at ~1800rpm or so in 6th, it bent 2 exhaust valves. One of my friends said he'd seen people post up about having eyelashing on their pistons after running an MS4, so I wanna see how many people have had similar issues. The 2 pistons are fubared, and I'm basically gonna be buying a new shortblock, since its cheaper than fixing my stock motor. I'm not happy with TSP at all right now, since they say nothing about any clearance issues or needing to flycut with this cam. I emailed them a while back, and they said that the cam must be installed a tooth off. I know its not, and my tuner is basically positive that it's not either since there were no problems with it tuning-wise. I'll be calling TSP either later today or early tomorrow.
So....anyone else experienced anything similar?
So....anyone else experienced anything similar?
I honestly do not think anyone should run a MS4 without checking p/v clearance. Too many variables to run one thats that close. All it takes is to float the valves once. What springs were you running? What was the installed height? seat pressure, open pressure?
I am just curious how only 2 valves hit the heads instead of all 8 exhaust valves hitting. Maybe it was just GM tollerances in the shortblock, but I can't help but wonder if you didn't have some valve float earlier and the problem just showed up while cruising. Either way, p/v clearances should have been measured at the time of install.
Good luck at getting it fixed!
Good luck at getting it fixed!
Originally Posted by Galen
I am just curious how only 2 valves hit the heads instead of all 8 exhaust valves hitting. Maybe it was just GM tollerances in the shortblock, but I can't help but wonder if you didn't have some valve float earlier and the problem just showed up while cruising. Either way, p/v clearances should have been measured at the time of install.
Good luck at getting it fixed!
Good luck at getting it fixed!
Which cyl's had the bent valves? 7 & 5?
I have the PRC dual springs. All the other pistons have eyelashes on them, just didn't tap hard enough to bend the valves. As for installed height, etc. I couldn't tell you.
The part I'm not happy with, is that there's no mention of tight p/v clearance on TSPs site. If I had known there even MIGHT have been issues, I would have purchased a different cam that I *knew* worked, and wouldn't be having this problem.
The part I'm not happy with, is that there's no mention of tight p/v clearance on TSPs site. If I had known there even MIGHT have been issues, I would have purchased a different cam that I *knew* worked, and wouldn't be having this problem.
What length PR's are you running?
If it's supposed to be a tooth off, then why don't they grind advance or retard into the cam?
The reason I'm in this thread is, I helped w/ an MS4 swap in my buddy's car. We spun the engine over by hand before firing it up. But that also wouldn't tell much on dry lifters. I am just as concerned w/ the life of his engine as if it was my own. I have blood and sweat into that too.
If it's supposed to be a tooth off, then why don't they grind advance or retard into the cam?
The reason I'm in this thread is, I helped w/ an MS4 swap in my buddy's car. We spun the engine over by hand before firing it up. But that also wouldn't tell much on dry lifters. I am just as concerned w/ the life of his engine as if it was my own. I have blood and sweat into that too.
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its not really TSP's job to make sure you are competent enough to do engine mods. If you bought a cam with that type of lift and duration and didnt check PTV, then that sounds like user error. They wont list a disclaimer with all the different engine setups saying which need flycutting and which dont, thats your job to find out.
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Originally Posted by bayer-z28
What length PR's are you running?
If it's supposed to be a tooth off, then why don't they grind advance or retard into the cam?
The reason I'm in this thread is, I helped w/ an MS4 swap in my buddy's car. We spun the engine over by hand before firing it up. But that also wouldn't tell much on dry lifters. I am just as concerned w/ the life of his engine as if it was my own. I have blood and sweat into that too.
If it's supposed to be a tooth off, then why don't they grind advance or retard into the cam?
The reason I'm in this thread is, I helped w/ an MS4 swap in my buddy's car. We spun the engine over by hand before firing it up. But that also wouldn't tell much on dry lifters. I am just as concerned w/ the life of his engine as if it was my own. I have blood and sweat into that too.
It's not *supposed* to be a tooth off, they said that was why it bent the exhaust valves.
If you guys didn't check the clearance, I would highly recommend doing so. I spun my motor over by hand a few times as well, didn't hear anything out of the ordinary.
Originally Posted by xBROKEx
its not really TSP's job to make sure you are competent enough to do engine mods. If you bought a cam with that type of lift and duration and didnt check PTV, then that sounds like user error. They wont list a disclaimer with all the different engine setups saying which need flycutting and which dont, thats your job to find out.
Originally Posted by 1SlowSRT
I know they aren't going to list all the different combinations....my motor is internally stock other than the cam and springs/pushrods. Factory heads, pistons, etc. Heads had never even been off the car until now. They should at least list if it works with a stock engine, not just say it needs double springs and a tune.
Two things could have come to my mind
1) you overrevved (mechanically or just stayed in it) and got some valve float or something
2) you fubared the install and it is a tooth off.
Regardless on any big cam you should check PTV. It is your motor and you modded it with a cam that someone sells. It is not their fault you did not put it in the proper setup for what you wanted to do.
I am sorry to hear that you have hurt the motor. However, I can assure you that there is plenty of PTV clearance on a properly installed camshaft with your factory heads and valves. There are SEVERAL cams out on the market today with tighter PTV clearance than the MS4 that are advertised for factory heads w/out flycutting. Camshafts just don't magically change after a month and have PTV problems. There are a couple ways that happened. Possibly an overrevving issue, a mis-installed cam, a lifter/valvetrain issue, ect.
As much as we would like to be able to make sure every aftermarket part is correctly installed and setup perfectly, we simply can not do so. We have to rely on the customer to have the knowledge to complete the install or have a professional complete the job. Degreeing a camshaft or checking PTV on the install is part of that. If you would like, you can send the cam into TSP or to Comp to have it checked on a cam doctor to insure the specs on the cam are correct.
As much as we would like to be able to make sure every aftermarket part is correctly installed and setup perfectly, we simply can not do so. We have to rely on the customer to have the knowledge to complete the install or have a professional complete the job. Degreeing a camshaft or checking PTV on the install is part of that. If you would like, you can send the cam into TSP or to Comp to have it checked on a cam doctor to insure the specs on the cam are correct.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
PTV is tight and well below .080/.100 on these large cams. More so on tight LSA. PTV should be measured.
Not all cams are ground the same, MS4 (or other) can variate slightly from one cam to another.
That is one thing why I now grind my cams at Thunder. You get a cam lift report with every cam.
Not all cams are ground the same, MS4 (or other) can variate slightly from one cam to another.
That is one thing why I now grind my cams at Thunder. You get a cam lift report with every cam.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
Originally Posted by Jon@Texas-Speed
Every cam has a cam card that leaves TSP as well. I'm pretty sure every cam manufacturer does supply a cam card with each individual cam.
Exemple:
That is a TR230 report.
Note it is advertised as a 230/224 111LSA but this one was a 230.6/224.0 111.3LSA, so the point is >> actual grind varies VS advertised specs.
On very tight cams (Like MS4, T-REX, Vengeance), that little difference can mean contact. Difference can be as much as 2* (accepted margin)
You can see this below on a T-REX (more pronounced variation)
So the advice of ALWAYS measuring PTV and DEGREING your cam should be the norm.
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; Sep 14, 2007 at 11:04 AM.
i installed MS4, no problems yet....but i'm keeping it under 6k untill i can do the heads, check PTV, Flycut, build the bottom end, etc.
I called TSP personally and they told me that i am completely safe running this cam on a 111lsa w/ stock heads.
BUT....
i've also read in a thread somewhere(predator can back me up) where they had actually listed the clearances on an engine that they had clayed themsleves with stock heads and an ms4....and the clearances were IN FACT less than the minimum advised .080/.100 ptv clearance.
let's just say that I'm taking it easy on my engine for now until i can get in there and check things out.
I called TSP personally and they told me that i am completely safe running this cam on a 111lsa w/ stock heads.
BUT....
i've also read in a thread somewhere(predator can back me up) where they had actually listed the clearances on an engine that they had clayed themsleves with stock heads and an ms4....and the clearances were IN FACT less than the minimum advised .080/.100 ptv clearance.
let's just say that I'm taking it easy on my engine for now until i can get in there and check things out.
I've had the misfortune of not always installing parts per instruction and checking clearances etc. I've experienced failures because of it. Years ago, I had some SS valves put into some heads with new guides. I didnt check the guide clearance after I got the heads back, assembled from the shop. Tight guides caused a valve to stuck, breaking the head off, in highway traffic. Of course, the shop that did the work didnt stand behind it. The lesson here is never install anything aftermarket without going through any steps to insure safety and correct fit. Anymore, I dont care who assembles my parts, I check it. If theres a defective or otherwise screwed up part out there, I'll get it. I've gotten cams and brand new heads that werent what they were supposed to be as well as suspension parts with defective welds.. Checking for yourself is an absolutely necessary step to take. Expect disaster occasionally even when doing so. Granted, there are many professional and well intended distributors and sellers here but intentions and track records cant begin to replace first hand checking. The only thing you'll be out of by doing so is time. After trying to get some resolve with the cylinder head issue I had years ago, I believe one of the Summers Brothers told me (they were friends of my grandfather) "thats what you get when you **** with mother nature". Just the nature of the beast so to say. The sponsors here are pretty good though. If you have any failures due to craftsmanship, they'll step up to the plate the vast majority of the time. Back in the day, you were lucky to get a part replaced if it showed up broken.
