GM CNC LS-6 Head failure
06-05-2003, 08:44 AM
#21
Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Robert, you need to calm down. Seems like you are taking this personal. I personally don't see how being a CPA for 22 years makes you any more of an authority on manufacturing warranties than anyone else.
I work at a manufacturing company. We sell products with a warranty. If the product is altered or modified in ANY way without our approval, the warranty is VOID. There are many problems that could occur with just a simple valvespring swap if the wrong people did the work. Ed already said that he would have to visually inspect the product to determine if this modification caused the problem, or if it was a problem with the product itself. What more could you ask for? That IS customer service. If these heads were never modified, it would have been a much easier case to handle.
You will also note that 99.99% of performance shops do NOT cover labor or shipping expenses when it comes to self-installed items. Just a fact of industry, go ahead and read the fine print. Its always been that way. Its up to the installer themselves if they wish to offer a labor warranty on installed parts.
Tony
I work at a manufacturing company. We sell products with a warranty. If the product is altered or modified in ANY way without our approval, the warranty is VOID. There are many problems that could occur with just a simple valvespring swap if the wrong people did the work. Ed already said that he would have to visually inspect the product to determine if this modification caused the problem, or if it was a problem with the product itself. What more could you ask for? That IS customer service. If these heads were never modified, it would have been a much easier case to handle.
You will also note that 99.99% of performance shops do NOT cover labor or shipping expenses when it comes to self-installed items. Just a fact of industry, go ahead and read the fine print. Its always been that way. Its up to the installer themselves if they wish to offer a labor warranty on installed parts.
Tony
06-05-2003, 09:19 AM
#22
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure I never claimed to be an expert on legal issues including warranty law.
What I have said is that it would be a good business practice for Ed Potter to state Lingenfelter's policy. That's all any prospective customer would expect.
In my specific case, I asked Lingenfelter to recommend a cam noting that I planned to use differnet springs than were shipped with the heads they ported. They recommended a cam for me in writting and did not mention the possiblity of voiding their warranty if I used different springs. In addition, they also did not inform me that in order to continue their warranty I would need to ship the heads with the different springs back to them for inspection before they were installed. Apparently, from what I understand from Ed Potter's very confusing explaination in this post, this requirement is part of their policy orginally implemented by John. Unfortunately, for ED and John's customers, however, this is not stated anywhere in the promotional materials for their product - either those sold directly by the company or through other venders (SDPC, Pace, GM Performance Parts, etc.)
Look, I think the heads I received are a great value and I expect that if I ever have an issue that it will be addressed in a fair manner. This is what every customer should demand.
I also suspect that Ed Potter fully realizes that many, if not most of the heads he shipped, will swap springs. If not intitally, at the time of install, at a later date. That being said, customers ought to know the policy BEFORE they buy heads that are ported from Lingenfelter. Again - this is just a good business practice and common sense.
What I have said is that it would be a good business practice for Ed Potter to state Lingenfelter's policy. That's all any prospective customer would expect.
In my specific case, I asked Lingenfelter to recommend a cam noting that I planned to use differnet springs than were shipped with the heads they ported. They recommended a cam for me in writting and did not mention the possiblity of voiding their warranty if I used different springs. In addition, they also did not inform me that in order to continue their warranty I would need to ship the heads with the different springs back to them for inspection before they were installed. Apparently, from what I understand from Ed Potter's very confusing explaination in this post, this requirement is part of their policy orginally implemented by John. Unfortunately, for ED and John's customers, however, this is not stated anywhere in the promotional materials for their product - either those sold directly by the company or through other venders (SDPC, Pace, GM Performance Parts, etc.)
Look, I think the heads I received are a great value and I expect that if I ever have an issue that it will be addressed in a fair manner. This is what every customer should demand.
I also suspect that Ed Potter fully realizes that many, if not most of the heads he shipped, will swap springs. If not intitally, at the time of install, at a later date. That being said, customers ought to know the policy BEFORE they buy heads that are ported from Lingenfelter. Again - this is just a good business practice and common sense.
06-05-2003, 10:06 AM
#23
LS1Tech Co-Founder
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure I agree with those agreeing. 
First, we are beating a dead horse, the customer has gotten it taken care of and the shop was the one raising a fuss.
It's well known that you have to be careful cutting into these heads. When we machined my 6.0 heads for the bigger springs we broke thru (happens all the time) and has to silicon them.
When in doubt, ask the supplier, in this case LPE, what they they reccomend and then you can go from there. If you don't like their answer return the heads I am sure there are many folks who would buy a set of those heads.
I track problems like this all the time, and they do happen. Sometimes it's over porting and other times it's the machining for bigger springs. Occasionally it's a bad (ie. porous) head casting.
First, we are beating a dead horse, the customer has gotten it taken care of and the shop was the one raising a fuss.
It's well known that you have to be careful cutting into these heads. When we machined my 6.0 heads for the bigger springs we broke thru (happens all the time) and has to silicon them.
When in doubt, ask the supplier, in this case LPE, what they they reccomend and then you can go from there. If you don't like their answer return the heads I am sure there are many folks who would buy a set of those heads.
I track problems like this all the time, and they do happen. Sometimes it's over porting and other times it's the machining for bigger springs. Occasionally it's a bad (ie. porous) head casting.
06-05-2003, 10:29 AM
#24
Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure 1. There was no machining for bigger springs.
2. The first person that they talked to @ LPE was an idiot and didn't get all the details before they denied the warranty claim. They heard "dual springs" and washed their hands of it.
Since the spring assembly that originally came with the heads (comp 918, spring seats, retainers) were no longer there, and there was an age issue of how long the heads had been installed, a full refund or complete swap-out cannot be done.
I don't know the exact details of what was worked out in the end, but I do know the customer got a new set of heads, and they're coming from LPE, so OBVIOUSLY they worked with them and came to an acceptable solution.
Here in a month or two when I swap out to a new set of REV springs, I'll be getting a spring height micrometer to actually measure the installed height of the springs. I do know that my WCCH spring seats were thinner than the stock ones were, and the retainer is stepped up just barely higher than the stock conical was. I really don't doubt that they are in fact at or very near 1.840" installed height. (Note: the WCCH ti retainers/spring seats are different than the ones REV sells)
2. The first person that they talked to @ LPE was an idiot and didn't get all the details before they denied the warranty claim. They heard "dual springs" and washed their hands of it.
Since the spring assembly that originally came with the heads (comp 918, spring seats, retainers) were no longer there, and there was an age issue of how long the heads had been installed, a full refund or complete swap-out cannot be done.
I don't know the exact details of what was worked out in the end, but I do know the customer got a new set of heads, and they're coming from LPE, so OBVIOUSLY they worked with them and came to an acceptable solution.
Here in a month or two when I swap out to a new set of REV springs, I'll be getting a spring height micrometer to actually measure the installed height of the springs. I do know that my WCCH spring seats were thinner than the stock ones were, and the retainer is stepped up just barely higher than the stock conical was. I really don't doubt that they are in fact at or very near 1.840" installed height. (Note: the WCCH ti retainers/spring seats are different than the ones REV sells)
06-05-2003, 11:10 AM
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure All I would add is that my attorney freind indicates that case law appears clear; if the product shipped is defective, an implied warranty exists since fair value consideration was exhanged (e.g., the seller received value - cash - for a product that is presumed to not be defective).
Damage caused by defective parts (including parts and labor) is "fair game" for the buyer to request and obtain. This is irrespective of what actual business practice has been in the past. (Telling a customer that the seller has not done this in the past for similar situations is not a valid defense)
Damage caused by defective parts (including parts and labor) is "fair game" for the buyer to request and obtain. This is irrespective of what actual business practice has been in the past. (Telling a customer that the seller has not done this in the past for similar situations is not a valid defense)
06-05-2003, 11:22 AM
#26
Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Hi Robert - I didn't mean to go this long without responding, but I have been very busy this morning. You can follow this link to the warranty page on our website:
http://www.lingenfelter.com/pacwarranty.asp
It gives you the complete breakdown of all of our different warranties.
To answer your specific question: since you asked me about changing springs, you wouldn't have any problem getting a problem fixed under warranty, as long as you send us the part and let us inspect it first. If we determine that your spring change had no cause in the failure, then your warranty would not be effected. This is standard procedure, due to the variables that are out of our control once a part leaves our shop.
I hope I have explained this clearly, but feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
Ed
http://www.lingenfelter.com/pacwarranty.asp
It gives you the complete breakdown of all of our different warranties.
To answer your specific question: since you asked me about changing springs, you wouldn't have any problem getting a problem fixed under warranty, as long as you send us the part and let us inspect it first. If we determine that your spring change had no cause in the failure, then your warranty would not be effected. This is standard procedure, due to the variables that are out of our control once a part leaves our shop.
I hope I have explained this clearly, but feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
Ed
06-05-2003, 12:19 PM
#27
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Hey Ed you never let many of us know how you were making out with those funny sleeves you and cartek were playing with and now you send out cylinderheads with only .020 left on the roof of the port man you got ***** you know those springs have atleast 370 pnds open good one big guy
06-05-2003, 01:18 PM
#28
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure This thread is loosing it's focus.
It does not make sense to fight a fight when the owner is already getting another set of heads to address whatever problems they bad.
If the heads didn't have the original springs were they used? Perhaps we don't have the full picture here.
It does not make sense to fight a fight when the owner is already getting another set of heads to address whatever problems they bad.
If the heads didn't have the original springs were they used? Perhaps we don't have the full picture here.
06-05-2003, 04:12 PM
#29
Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Baddmood - where have you been? you haven't busted my chops in a few months! good to see you're still around.
We're still working on the blocks, but I will make sure you are the first to know when they are ready.
Ed
We're still working on the blocks, but I will make sure you are the first to know when they are ready.
Ed
06-05-2003, 07:05 PM
#30
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure i think if heads blow up due to overbore need to be replaced, but asking them to pay for re-installation and pay for new springs and everything is asking a little too much.
06-05-2003, 07:48 PM
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure "All I would add is that my attorney freind indicates that case law appears clear; if the product shipped is defective, an implied warranty exists since fair value consideration was exhanged (e.g., the seller received value - cash - for a product that is presumed to not be defective)."
God, I'm sick of people always throwing in crap about what lawyers say. Just like any case you would have to prove the heads are defective from LPE. In this case you wouldn't have clear cut proof it was defective because they were altered or modified after LPE sent them.
It's a moot point because the customer is taken care of. But, please spare us the lawyer crap.
God, I'm sick of people always throwing in crap about what lawyers say. Just like any case you would have to prove the heads are defective from LPE. In this case you wouldn't have clear cut proof it was defective because they were altered or modified after LPE sent them.
It's a moot point because the customer is taken care of. But, please spare us the lawyer crap.
06-05-2003, 08:27 PM
#32
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Pretty simple too me.If you modify any parts you void your warranty.Why would anyone warrant something they didnt do.I think LPE handled this in a professional manner.What started as a slam actually made me more confident in LPE.
06-05-2003, 09:32 PM
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Ya Ed its me again your big pain in the ***.You should know by now if there is a wagon I will jump on it.Its nice to see some things on this board never change everyone is critic or **** disturber honestly Ed I just want to here about the sleeves not the head crap.The way I see it there is something not being said about what happen to that LS6 head. But hey thanxs for remembering me keep us up to date on the sleeves.
06-06-2003, 12:14 AM
#34
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Yeah, I think LPE took care of the issue. They definitely have the right to inspect heads before issuing a refund. As far as I understand they did just that - inspected the heads and then settled the issue with the customer.
06-06-2003, 07:31 AM
#35
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Over of CF, Andy has now come out and said that LPE took care of the issue to everyone's satisfaction. My reason for posting this was not to bust LPE's chops, but to find out exactly what was going on.
As for warranty. Along with being a computer nerd, I spend a lot of time in a machine shop. Without trying to bash anyone, LPE's warranty is pretty much how everyone else handles warranty work. They can only warranty those things that they have control over.
Its the same with GM. They aren't going to warranty your motor if they find out you threw a set of JE forged piston in it. Whey should LPE warranty a head without seeing why the failure occured. All they are trying to do is ensure that the problem is with their work not someone elses.
Again, I applaud LPE for taking care of their customers. From my understanding this has been how they have always handled things, and it continues to be the case.
As always before you modify anything, make sure you do your homework...
As for warranty. Along with being a computer nerd, I spend a lot of time in a machine shop. Without trying to bash anyone, LPE's warranty is pretty much how everyone else handles warranty work. They can only warranty those things that they have control over.
Its the same with GM. They aren't going to warranty your motor if they find out you threw a set of JE forged piston in it. Whey should LPE warranty a head without seeing why the failure occured. All they are trying to do is ensure that the problem is with their work not someone elses.
Again, I applaud LPE for taking care of their customers. From my understanding this has been how they have always handled things, and it continues to be the case.
As always before you modify anything, make sure you do your homework...
06-06-2003, 08:12 AM
#36
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure Hey, this sounds like a casting core-shift problem, not a problem at LPE or due to the springs.
In casting processes the cores sometimes shift leaving less material where you want it.
It would require a pretty detailed examination of the part to determine if the cores had shifted, catching this is probably beyond the scope of most limited production (meaning non-OEM) shops.
That being said, here's the resolution if it's a core shift:
1) Lingenfelter should honor their warranty in total regardless of spring installations UNLESS that installation required machining of the head.
2) Lingenfelter then needs to go after their supplier for the quality issue.
Let's be real here gents...
The supplier will turn over a new head casting in a heartbeat to keep a customer happy. All LPE would have to do is make a call and show them the core shifted part.
Then everybody is happy and LPE should get far fewer of these parts in this condition.
In casting processes the cores sometimes shift leaving less material where you want it.
It would require a pretty detailed examination of the part to determine if the cores had shifted, catching this is probably beyond the scope of most limited production (meaning non-OEM) shops.
That being said, here's the resolution if it's a core shift:
1) Lingenfelter should honor their warranty in total regardless of spring installations UNLESS that installation required machining of the head.
2) Lingenfelter then needs to go after their supplier for the quality issue.
Let's be real here gents...
The supplier will turn over a new head casting in a heartbeat to keep a customer happy. All LPE would have to do is make a call and show them the core shifted part.
Then everybody is happy and LPE should get far fewer of these parts in this condition.
06-06-2003, 03:17 PM
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure OK, I agree with all (most) that has been said.
It is none of my business about the terms of the settlement between Lingenfelter and the customer; my only hope would be that if it is a core-shift or overporting problem that the customer should have asked and received the following from the seller:
1. A new set of replacement heads
2. reimbursement for any other hard or soft parts destroyed or damaged including new bolts, gaskets, etc,
3. Reimburement for ALL reasonable labor including taking the destroyed heads off and shipping them to and from the seller location.
After all, if I am the customer it is not my fault that the heads contained a material defect; it should not matter whose fault this is (e.g., casting manufacturor or porting company). The seller should reimburse these costs to make the buyer 100% whole since he paid full value for a product that was supposed to be free of material defects. In other words, the customer should not be harmed economically for damage caused by a defective product. (More legal **** you guys hate - I know)
This applies regardless of the ACTUAL warranty policy stated or in written form that was properly given at the time of sale. (Ignoring this is like putting a sign on your property that says if you fall here you can't sue me - nice notice but it is not a valid defense if your mailman slips and breaks his neck.)
Technically, what is actually the "standard" settlement for these disputes is also irrelevant if you follow warranty case law. Just something to keep in mind if your are negoitiating an actual or implied warranty claim.
As far as the view that says the warranty should be voided if someone else installed springs on the heads, I say tell that to the judge!
As someone said before that being a CPA does not qualify me to give legal advice; that is correct, I'm not licenced to do so.
That being said, CPAs must have 5 years of school traning, pass 40 hours of state exams and conduct auditing procedures for two years before becoming licenced. 8 hours of the 40 hour state exam is BUSINESS LAW. We need to know business law to opine on financial statements that include assertions about the application of business law (yes, this includes warranty issues too). No I don't work for Arthur Anderson - I'm at KPMG.
I am also a previous owner of a transmission repair shop that stated the ACTUAL - not implied warranty on every repair invoice. So I have also been on the other side of warranty claims issues in the automotive industry.
As Billy Clinton would say, I CAN FEEL YOUR PAIN!
It is none of my business about the terms of the settlement between Lingenfelter and the customer; my only hope would be that if it is a core-shift or overporting problem that the customer should have asked and received the following from the seller:
1. A new set of replacement heads
2. reimbursement for any other hard or soft parts destroyed or damaged including new bolts, gaskets, etc,
3. Reimburement for ALL reasonable labor including taking the destroyed heads off and shipping them to and from the seller location.
After all, if I am the customer it is not my fault that the heads contained a material defect; it should not matter whose fault this is (e.g., casting manufacturor or porting company). The seller should reimburse these costs to make the buyer 100% whole since he paid full value for a product that was supposed to be free of material defects. In other words, the customer should not be harmed economically for damage caused by a defective product. (More legal **** you guys hate - I know)
This applies regardless of the ACTUAL warranty policy stated or in written form that was properly given at the time of sale. (Ignoring this is like putting a sign on your property that says if you fall here you can't sue me - nice notice but it is not a valid defense if your mailman slips and breaks his neck.)
Technically, what is actually the "standard" settlement for these disputes is also irrelevant if you follow warranty case law. Just something to keep in mind if your are negoitiating an actual or implied warranty claim.
As far as the view that says the warranty should be voided if someone else installed springs on the heads, I say tell that to the judge!
As someone said before that being a CPA does not qualify me to give legal advice; that is correct, I'm not licenced to do so.
That being said, CPAs must have 5 years of school traning, pass 40 hours of state exams and conduct auditing procedures for two years before becoming licenced. 8 hours of the 40 hour state exam is BUSINESS LAW. We need to know business law to opine on financial statements that include assertions about the application of business law (yes, this includes warranty issues too). No I don't work for Arthur Anderson - I'm at KPMG.
I am also a previous owner of a transmission repair shop that stated the ACTUAL - not implied warranty on every repair invoice. So I have also been on the other side of warranty claims issues in the automotive industry.
As Billy Clinton would say, I CAN FEEL YOUR PAIN!
06-09-2003, 04:47 PM
#38
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Re: GM CNC LS-6 Head failure I can't believe how many people have read this post; I think 1,230 hits is a new record!!!!
It brings to mind some of the early problems with the 918 springs that would go pow! ...obviously a defect that the manufacturor should cover - including labor... Sending you a new set of springs with a note saying good luck is, in my opinion, a bad deal...
It brings to mind some of the early problems with the 918 springs that would go pow! ...obviously a defect that the manufacturor should cover - including labor... Sending you a new set of springs with a note saying good luck is, in my opinion, a bad deal...
