J-Rod

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=575048

This post is from Anday @ A&A Corvette. I had question after reading his initial post, which he answered. I thought it might be of some interest here. While I have not heard of anyone else having this issue I wanted folks to be aware that Andy bought a set of CNC ported heads.

Andy installed rev1116 springs, While the car was running it tore the rocker boss and the top of the runner off, and, it ripped a hole the size of a golf ball in the intake runner.

The response was that he was responsible since they installed double springs. He measured the thickness at the point of failure and found it to be about .020 thick.

Anyhow, I have asked him to post pictures, but I thought it might be of some interest to folks.

BergerMan

I read the post and it sounds like they ported a head that was a bad casting or there was a problem in the CNC program and it cut too deep. Double springs will not cause this and they should get him a new set of heads ASAP.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Nice link, I think that that is a freak occurrence and that the head shoold be analyzed for casting flaws.

How is he able to get to 1.84 installed height without (a) going to a .100 longer valve or (b) cutting the heads? I don't get that part, stock valves only allow you go get to 1.80 right?

JS

iTrader: (4)

I BELIEVE Andy runs a stepped retainer and a proprietary spring locator to achieve 1.84 installed height John.

He is a good guy,I have talked to him about his remodded rev spring package and he was more than happy to give all the info.

Its not his fault the head broke...
They,whoever did the heads should help him out

J-Rod

With all of that particular head (as I said SDPC alledgely sell s 60 pairs per month) you would think if it was a recurring problem we'd have heard of more of it by now.

I just wanted to get a bit more input.

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

I've heard that they hog out there heads and weld the top to give more porting room.Haven't seen one personally but also haven't heard of anyone installing double springs on them yet either.

robertbartsch

I just installed a set of SDPC CNC LS6 heads. Since I'm using REV double springs, I checked the thickness between the intake port and the bottom of the spring seat before installation.

Although this was not scientific in that I did not take measurements, I did compare the thickness to the thickness of my old stock LS1` heads. This was done by finger feel only.

In my case, the thinckness difference between the two heads did not seem great and I don't expect any issues.

My castings carried a Lingfelter production tag from January 2003. If you have issues with SDPC not covering the damage, I would ask Lingefelter to investigate since it is their CNC work.

I heard of this same event happening with another CNC porting shop (an LS1 Tech sponsor) with a LS1 head casting. This occured several months ago and I believe the post indicated that the damage was fully covered.

Richard@WCCH

iTrader: (3)

My shop installed those dual springs last year when the heads were brand new. Our dual spring kit requires no machining whatsoever so as not to compromise casting thickness. The spring pressure of the duals is nearly identical to the Comp 918 springs. Lord knows I have sent some heads out of here with significantly more seat and open pressure without such failures. Andy's customer purchased the heads directly from the folks who machine them, not SPDC. I recall they were very difficult to work with when sending them his used head cores. They wouldn't accept them because they were cleaned!
Andy's beef is not with the failure of the part, but with the lack of ANY customer support. As with any business, problems will happen. How those problems are dealt with is important.

Richard

07BlueDevilZ06

iTrader: (8)

if they were bought direct from lpe and not threw gm then they are different the program used on the gm cnc heads is licenced to gm and can be sold only threw gm lpe has there own program for there cnc heads so if there is not a gm part# stamped on the side of the head then they are different

george

Ed Potter @ LPE

iTrader: (1)

I would like to respond to some of the comments being made. One of our engineers has been trying to respond, but is having log-in problems with his screen name.

These are our heads, and we do build a lot of them, and I see that everyone is pretty quick to jump on the "I hate LPE bandwagon" but if any of you would have taken the time to look at some facts, you would probably have a different opinion.

Fact # 1: This particular solution was implemented by John himself, and it is an acceptable solution. We have all tried very hard to keep doing things the way John taught us to, and I take offense at the statements that things would be different if he were here.

Fact # 2: This particular pair of heads was altered after we shipped them, our standard procedure is to have them sent back to us and completely check them out before a warranty authorization is given. We don't know for sure what work was done, therefore we cannot simply give a full refund.

Fact # 3: Our sales manager did work out a mutually acceptable agreement with the customer. If you notice, there is not one complaint from him, this is all started by Andy( Who is the same person that modified the heads) obviously he has a vested interest.

Fact # 4: LPE does spend a considerable amount of time offering service after the sale on every product we sell, as well as technical help on other vendors products, when people are having a problem. I personally spend at least half of my day answering questions, and trying to help forum members solve problems. We are very access-able, and I don't think anyone will deny that.

We are working on this problem and will get it resolved, but I think it is very unprofessional of Andy to jump in a public forum and start bashing another tuner (without naming names). We don't participate in internet trash talking, but if Andy would like to discuss the failed double valve spring he installed, he can call our engineer, Graham Behan at his convenience.

As always, if anyone has any questions or comments feel free to contact me.

Ed

robertbartsch

NHRA Formula:
My LS6 ported SDPC heads are stamped with a Lingfleter code and have a GM casting number.

I assume that the heads in question were purchased directly from Lingfelter, but assume they would also carry a Linfelter code. In either event, I beleive they should cover the warranty work if the only change to the heads they shipped were to install REV springs. REV springs do NOT require cutting the seat or other modifications to the heads.

Ed Potter:
Ed Potter's response is not clear and infers that the heads were modified subsequent to shipping by Lingfelter. He does not say what the modification was, however.

Ed: Is this modification you refer to in this post, the REV spring change? ...Or is this modification additional porting of the intake that could have caused the damage?

I just installed the REV springs in my SDPC heads that were ported by Lingfelter in January of 2003. When I asked you to suggest a cam for the swap, I told you I planned to used REV doubles. You did not indicate to me that these springs should not be used. I have the e-mail you forwarded to me to prove my point.

Are you saying that if I use REV doubles on the SDPC head that you ported that my warranty is not valid? Please clarify!

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

If the heads were further modified I can't see how LPE can be hammered on this.

I also know that SDPC sells a ton of these heads and if there was recurring problem we'd be hearing about it a lot.

Ed Potter @ LPE

iTrader: (1)

Hi Robert - The only thing that I'm saying, is that knowing someone else made changes to the heads after we shipped them, we could not issue a full refund sight unseen. This is an isolated situation, and there is much more to this story than what people are saying. We have always stood behind our work, and we are constantly improving our products.

Ed

robertbartsch

Ed Potter:
Thanks for the insight but, based on your reply to my earlier question, I am now truly confused about your warranty policy on heads you port!

When you sell a head and ship it to a customer, it will be installed by another third party. This is a fact that cannot be disputed.

When installing your heads, the cam selection is a factor in determining the appropriate valve springs that should be used. Even your own advice to my e-mail asking for a cam recommendation recognizes this fact.

According to your response above, it could be inferred by you that ANY change, including a spring change that would be necessary to conform with a cam manufacturor's recommendation, could void your Lingfelter warranty on the heads you CNC ported.

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that a potential plantiff that modified your heads to include springs recommended by a cam manufaturor would have a good case to pursue full economic compliance with your implied and actual warranty.

In addition, your shipping information on the heads I purchased does not discuss spring changes or other so-called modifications that you claim could void a warranty.

So Ed: Please clarify your official policy so all the members of this Board can understand exacty what is covered and what is not.

In my specific case, since you did not indicate that my spring change would violate your warranty when I specifically told you I planned to use REV doubles as evidenced by my e-mail correspondence to you, I can safely assume that any stated policy made from this date forward does not apply to me or others who have similar circumstances.

From what I now about Lingfelter it is a great company that has always stood behind their work. Please confirm this.

Thanks...

onfire

iTrader: (17)

IMHO if I sold a set of ported heads (completely assembled with valves,springs,retainers,etc)and someone took them apart to replace anything they do so at their own risk. Who knows how many ways an incompetent mechanic could screw up a set of heads. What if they installed a defective spring and you dropped a valve and ruined the engine....whose fault is that? Ya think GM would warranty the engine with aftermarket heads? Probably not. These are aftermarket modified performance parts. If I have a problem with an aftermarket part I try to work it out with the vendor. Most will meet you halfway or better. The irony to this post (and the Vetteforum) is it's all heresay.....the guy that bought the heads has never posted in the +60 posts.

robertbartsch

In my opinion, ONFIRE's opinion is bull.

If you bought a set of ported heads for $2K you would expect that the manufacturor would warranty them. In the subject case, where the heads imploded because the intake port under the valve spring was "over-ported" as indicated by a mere .20 thickness, I would expect that the company porting the heads would stand behind their product. They should never have shipped this product.

This includes reimbursing the buyer for:

1. The cost of the replacement heads
2. The cost of any other hard parts that were destroyed by the implosion including pistons, block, rockers, valves, machining etc., and
3. The cost of labor to install the replacement parts.

Surely, any judge and jury would agree with this assertion. Trust me on this one: I've been there and done that!


Lingfelter claims to sell "tons" of ported heads and claims that this issue discussed above is an extreme case. That being said, their replacement costs for this warranty work should be considered by them as a "normal" cost of doing business.



As a CPA with 22 years of experience in business I can assure you that standing by your work is the only policy that works in our capitalist system. Yeh, I've been sued before and it is not fun, but that is the system we live under and it works well!

To further emphasize my point:

1. My Lingfelter ported heads did not ship with any instructions on what, if any, actions would void the warranty

2. I e-mailed Ed potter asking him to suggest a cam for my new Lingfelter ported heads and I indicated that I would be using REV springs; Lingfelter did not indicate that such springs should not be used and would void any warranty.

3. When I asked Ed Potter if the warranty would be voided in my case, he has not responded to my inquiry.

Those who purchase after-market parts only to receive parts that don't fit, parts that don't perform according to claims, parts that break because of improper design or manufacture should WAKE UP and demand quality and a fair deal.

Thise who don't will continue to be RIPPED OFF!!!!

robertbartsch

Oh: by the way, Ed Potter:

As of the time of this writing, 530 people have read this thread and are waiting for your reply! I can safely assume that your sale of "tons" of heads may be affected by your failure to warranty your product or, the failure to at LEAST, state your policy.

So lets here it.

If your warranty does not cover heads that have been so-called modified by exchanging valve springs - PLEASE SAY SO!!!!

I will gladly replace the REV doubles springs with the LS6 springs and retainers that came with the original ported heads to keep the warranty in force! I can assure you dozens and dozens of your customers have done the same and expect that you tell them what your policy is. This is a lodgical and fair request.

JUST TELL US WHAT YOUR WARRANTY COVERS; THAT ALL ANY CUSTOMER WOULD EXPECT!

onfire

iTrader: (17)

I respect your opinion....but disagree with it. If you put a major aftermarket part on an engine and the engine fails....no judge or jury or GM or the dog next door will fully warranty the failure. THAT'S been proven over and over. GM doesn't give you an inclusive list of items that will void your warranty...no one can...including LPE... My CPA is very detail oriented. It's "LINGENFELTER" not "Lingfelter".

2000RATA

I received a set of these last week. I am upgrading them to a more "Stage 2" status for a customer. I haven't got to them yet but now I'm really curious as to how much material there is left after the port work. Might have to look at them first thing in the morning.

robertbartsch

ONFIRE:
Your argument is interesting but is based on false information.

This is like saying GM has the right to void your drivetrain warranty if you replace the stock air filter with a reuseable element. In these situations, the defendent must prove that the modification caused the problem in order to avoid coverage under the warranty.

The burden of proof is the defendants.

Sorry about the misspelling of Lingenfelter; I still think it would be a good business practice for Ed Potter to explain his policy.

After all, in a few rare cases, we here have all read about head implosions involving heavily ported heads manufactured by several Board sponsors.

It is my recollection that in each case the sponsor covered the damages; these included (i) replacement of the damaged/defective heads, (ii) reimbursement of the costs of any hard parts damaged, and (iii) labor.

All I'm suggesting is that Lingenfelter should do the same and put those who are considering purchase of heads they CNC port on notice as to what actions, if any, will void a warranty. (Just common sense to me.)

I'm I wrong on this?