oil pump
04-27-2008, 09:28 PM
#41
LS1Tech Sponsor
Too much oil pressure Too much oil pressure does mean some power us being used to run the pump that doesn't need to so you are loosing some power. The bigger problem with too much oil pressure is that you can end up with too much oil in some places in the engine since at a higher oil pressure more oil will flow to those locations (such as the cylinder heads).
I run a remote mount filter (extra 8ft of 1/2" oil lines) and have a 7qt pan so you might not need the extra pressure. I'm thinking pressure is going to be more like 80psi when its around 6k or so haha. If its too high i might even integrate an oil cooler in line just to give it a little more room to run the oil. I was trying ot decide if i was going to go TT with the engine. Since i already had a remote mount filter i figured i was halfway there lmao.
What harm can excessive oil pressure/volume do to an engine? Heat up the oil more? Rob HP? Spin rod bearing?
What harm can excessive oil pressure/volume do to an engine? Heat up the oil more? Rob HP? Spin rod bearing?
04-27-2008, 09:48 PM
#42
LS1Tech Sponsor
Oil pump and other questions If you have polished the crankshaft, you have removed material so that has opened up some clearances. Polishing also sometimes tends to put flat areas over the oil holes that tends to reduce the distance between the crank oil hole and the edge of the bearing - making it easier for the oil to escape. If you are going to use aftermarket crankshaft bearings they will probably have chamfered edges designed to work with the aftermarket crankshafts so that will also reduce the width of the bearing and make it easier for the oil to escape.
I would either use a stock LS1/LS2/LS6 style pump with a higher base (initial opening) pressure spring or the 10295 Melling. You could also use the 10296 Melling if you wanted to have a little more volume that stock. You probably don't need the high volume GM pump we sell unless someone got really careless while polishing the crank.
We use the later model GM LS6 style production timing chains in most of the engines we build. For an upgrade from that we often go to the Cloyes IRL style chain and gears or the IWIS/JWIS heavy duty chain with the stock gears. Other than a couple of times when customers have sent the chains in themselves or specifically had us order the double roller chains, we haven't used those on the LSx style engines. With the larger pumps these types of chains do have some packaging problems.
BTW - on your 5.3L block, check the side of the block. Some of the early cast iron LSx type engine blocks were the same between the 4.8, 5.3 and the 6.0 and had all three engine sizes cast in the side of the blocks. If that is the case you should be able to machine your 5.3L block out to the 6.0L bore (sonic check it first anyway).
QUOTE=1FastBrick;9245468]Jason, First off Thanks for the reluctor wheels you sold me.
I am doing a build up on an Iron block 5.3L
I was thinking about getting 10296 hard anodized pump before reading this post. The crank was polished and is still withen Factory standard size spec on the rods and mains. The block will be bored for a new set of pistons as soon as we get the price sheet From Mahle. They recently released Stock replacment pistons for these in over bore sizes so I dont have to go through GM. Since it is not going to get any Juice or Forced induction, I would consider it a stock type rebuild with a large cam and upgraded heads for my DD.
The tired 5.3 in it now gets 40 Psi warmed up and 60 ish under load. When you first start it cold, Its around 60 ish. I start running Valoline 10-30 High millage oil because of all the Noise and because it was burning oil real bad. The additives stoped the oil burning and smoking and it is not as loud as it used to be.
What Oil Pump would you recomend me using?
What are my options for timing chains?
I was looking at going to a true roller style timing Chain, How ever it seems there may be an issue with fitment? What are you guys using?
I also have an Iron 6.0L I would like to build up too... but those two things are kinda holding me back since I can't seem to get a clear straight forward answer.[/QUOTE]
I would either use a stock LS1/LS2/LS6 style pump with a higher base (initial opening) pressure spring or the 10295 Melling. You could also use the 10296 Melling if you wanted to have a little more volume that stock. You probably don't need the high volume GM pump we sell unless someone got really careless while polishing the crank.
We use the later model GM LS6 style production timing chains in most of the engines we build. For an upgrade from that we often go to the Cloyes IRL style chain and gears or the IWIS/JWIS heavy duty chain with the stock gears. Other than a couple of times when customers have sent the chains in themselves or specifically had us order the double roller chains, we haven't used those on the LSx style engines. With the larger pumps these types of chains do have some packaging problems.
BTW - on your 5.3L block, check the side of the block. Some of the early cast iron LSx type engine blocks were the same between the 4.8, 5.3 and the 6.0 and had all three engine sizes cast in the side of the blocks. If that is the case you should be able to machine your 5.3L block out to the 6.0L bore (sonic check it first anyway).
QUOTE=1FastBrick;9245468]Jason, First off Thanks for the reluctor wheels you sold me.
I am doing a build up on an Iron block 5.3L
I was thinking about getting 10296 hard anodized pump before reading this post. The crank was polished and is still withen Factory standard size spec on the rods and mains. The block will be bored for a new set of pistons as soon as we get the price sheet From Mahle. They recently released Stock replacment pistons for these in over bore sizes so I dont have to go through GM. Since it is not going to get any Juice or Forced induction, I would consider it a stock type rebuild with a large cam and upgraded heads for my DD.
The tired 5.3 in it now gets 40 Psi warmed up and 60 ish under load. When you first start it cold, Its around 60 ish. I start running Valoline 10-30 High millage oil because of all the Noise and because it was burning oil real bad. The additives stoped the oil burning and smoking and it is not as loud as it used to be.
What Oil Pump would you recomend me using?
What are my options for timing chains?
I was looking at going to a true roller style timing Chain, How ever it seems there may be an issue with fitment? What are you guys using?
I also have an Iron 6.0L I would like to build up too... but those two things are kinda holding me back since I can't seem to get a clear straight forward answer.[/QUOTE]
04-27-2008, 10:03 PM
#43
Best I can tell it was an 2001 block by something I saw on the block or crank ( can't remember ). has 4.8L / 5.3L cast into it. was low miles with a nice clean std. bore had good cross hatch on all cylinders with no scuffing. I wanted to go 5.7 but my machine shop does not have the sonic checking equipment. After looking at the cylinder thicknes it looks like it would be awfully thin at .120 ish over. I am guessing those early block are hard to find.
I scored a 2006 6.0L Long block with only 1500 miles on it last weekend. I need to tare it down and go through it. crank was done by a very reputable shop out here that only does cranks. Castillo's Crank Shaft Service
I scored a 2006 6.0L Long block with only 1500 miles on it last weekend. I need to tare it down and go through it. crank was done by a very reputable shop out here that only does cranks. Castillo's Crank Shaft Service
05-04-2008, 09:56 AM
#44
I just started my engine today. I cant get it to idle below about 1,000rpms but the warm oil pressure is about 70psi with the LPE high volume pump with high pressure spring. I am running a mix of 15w40 and 5 30 oil right now though as i was just using up what i had to 'flush' the motor since i built it.
05-13-2008, 12:05 AM
#45
On The Tree
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Jason, thanks for all the info on the oil pumps. Greatly appreciated because I think it changed my mind. Gonna run the 295 in my 02 38,xxx mile LSx build. Aftermarket standard size bearings and a barely cleaned up crankshaft. Good choice?
05-15-2008, 12:19 PM
#46
Staging Lane
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Jason, thanks for your input on this thread. I've been following it for awhile, and now that I'm breaking my new build in I'd like to poke your brain for a moment. I have a few questions, and hopefully this will help others.
I rebuilt my GTO LS2 using Federal Mogul 152M main bearings, 7100CH rod bearings and Durabond CHP23 cam bearings. The LS2 crank is .10 over. I have new comp OE lifters. I have a double roller and the new SLP oil pump. I left their high-pressure relief spring in place. Currently the GM recommended weight oil is in the motor as I'm breaking it in, it's either 5-20 or 5-30 (can't remember off the top of my head sadly) I'm not using synthetic oil btw, just so we clear that up. I run 7qts versus the 6.5 they say to use. It's a positive-displacement supercharged application.
Cold idle (initial start) results in 45-50psi, and if I give the pedal a little kick I can see the pressure build to over 60 (at around 3-4k/rpm) so it's building which is nice. Hot idle (oil temperature between 180-210*) is 10-15psi at around 800-850/rpm. Hot oil @ ~2k/rpm shows about 28/psi. If you stomp on the pedal, it builds. Building is good. (I lost a motor once because it stopped building, so I'm paranoid now about oil pressure if you can't tell)
Sitting in my driveway at hot idle (180-210*) if I carefully run the motor up to 5/k and hold it there the pressure never builds beyond about 36-38/psi, and when it returns to idle it's still in the 10-15/psi @ 800-850/rpm range.
First question, is my hot idle oil pressure too low? I know it's supposed to be 10psi per 1k, but it simply bothers me to be "at the minimum". It hasn't dropped below 10psi/800rpm at all. *knocks on wood*
Second, why wouldn't my hot oil pressure build beyond 36/38 psi even when the motor is in high rpms and I'm sitting still? Pan starvation, oil pressure relief spring, ..? Should I be -overly- concerned about the fact it's plateuing?
Third, I notice my oil pressure gains like 5/psi (in any rpm) if I'm decelerating. Is this due to crank vacuum or the oil building up near the pickup tube?
Fourth, don't the lifters require a constant 22/psi to maintain their "pumped-up" status? If so, then why would 10/psi @ hot idle be acceptable? And wouldn't a collapsed lifter cause low oil pressure/blockage?
Lastly, why is it I've known some stock LSx motors to have 30-40psi for a hot idle oil temp, and some to have 10-20psi, all things the same? I've monitored pressure on several stock motor builds and noticed that. I mean, that literally worries me to see that much variation.
There's almost 500ish miles on the new build. I did my first oil change at 50/mi, then 150, then 350 and am currently around 500ish. Very few oil/wear-in deposits on the first few oil changes, and hardly any on the last so I'm feeling good about the oil. I checked it yesterday and it's still very clean.
Thanks in advance if you respond.
I rebuilt my GTO LS2 using Federal Mogul 152M main bearings, 7100CH rod bearings and Durabond CHP23 cam bearings. The LS2 crank is .10 over. I have new comp OE lifters. I have a double roller and the new SLP oil pump. I left their high-pressure relief spring in place. Currently the GM recommended weight oil is in the motor as I'm breaking it in, it's either 5-20 or 5-30 (can't remember off the top of my head sadly) I'm not using synthetic oil btw, just so we clear that up. I run 7qts versus the 6.5 they say to use. It's a positive-displacement supercharged application.
Cold idle (initial start) results in 45-50psi, and if I give the pedal a little kick I can see the pressure build to over 60 (at around 3-4k/rpm) so it's building which is nice. Hot idle (oil temperature between 180-210*) is 10-15psi at around 800-850/rpm. Hot oil @ ~2k/rpm shows about 28/psi. If you stomp on the pedal, it builds. Building is good. (I lost a motor once because it stopped building, so I'm paranoid now about oil pressure if you can't tell)
Sitting in my driveway at hot idle (180-210*) if I carefully run the motor up to 5/k and hold it there the pressure never builds beyond about 36-38/psi, and when it returns to idle it's still in the 10-15/psi @ 800-850/rpm range.
First question, is my hot idle oil pressure too low? I know it's supposed to be 10psi per 1k, but it simply bothers me to be "at the minimum". It hasn't dropped below 10psi/800rpm at all. *knocks on wood*
Second, why wouldn't my hot oil pressure build beyond 36/38 psi even when the motor is in high rpms and I'm sitting still? Pan starvation, oil pressure relief spring, ..? Should I be -overly- concerned about the fact it's plateuing?
Third, I notice my oil pressure gains like 5/psi (in any rpm) if I'm decelerating. Is this due to crank vacuum or the oil building up near the pickup tube?
Fourth, don't the lifters require a constant 22/psi to maintain their "pumped-up" status? If so, then why would 10/psi @ hot idle be acceptable? And wouldn't a collapsed lifter cause low oil pressure/blockage?
Lastly, why is it I've known some stock LSx motors to have 30-40psi for a hot idle oil temp, and some to have 10-20psi, all things the same? I've monitored pressure on several stock motor builds and noticed that. I mean, that literally worries me to see that much variation.
There's almost 500ish miles on the new build. I did my first oil change at 50/mi, then 150, then 350 and am currently around 500ish. Very few oil/wear-in deposits on the first few oil changes, and hardly any on the last so I'm feeling good about the oil. I checked it yesterday and it's still very clean.
Thanks in advance if you respond.
06-30-2008, 12:29 AM
#49
very goodinformation here, its been abig help. so basically if i want to upgrade my stock oil pump.....and LS6 oil pump is the exact same one a 2000 LS1 comes with correct? if my oil pump isnt quite living up to the task (after about 4 runs and long 4th gear pulls at a contant high rpm, the oil pressure drops very low and the top end ticks a little), i should get a PORTED LS6 pump?
06-30-2008, 12:32 AM
#50
LS1Tech Sponsor
06-30-2008, 12:36 AM
#51
LS1Tech Sponsor
Low oil pressure after 4 runs How low is "very low"?
Yes, the LS1 and the LS6 pumps are the same (same part number etc) as is the LS2 pump.
Porting the stock pump does virtually nothing to increase the volume capacity of the pump (a very small increase in flow might be possible due to removing some of the restrictions in the casting but you are talking very small changes in flow, if any). We clean up the castings on the stock pumps ("port the pumps") when we assemble an engine just because we have it all apart anyway.
If you have low oil pressure then you need to go to a high volume capacity pump, not just a ported stock volume pump. If you are only a little low on pressure then I would recommend the Melling 10296.
Yes, the LS1 and the LS6 pumps are the same (same part number etc) as is the LS2 pump.
Porting the stock pump does virtually nothing to increase the volume capacity of the pump (a very small increase in flow might be possible due to removing some of the restrictions in the casting but you are talking very small changes in flow, if any). We clean up the castings on the stock pumps ("port the pumps") when we assemble an engine just because we have it all apart anyway.
If you have low oil pressure then you need to go to a high volume capacity pump, not just a ported stock volume pump. If you are only a little low on pressure then I would recommend the Melling 10296.
very goodinformation here, its been abig help. so basically if i want to upgrade my stock oil pump.....and LS6 oil pump is the exact same one a 2000 LS1 comes with correct? if my oil pump isnt quite living up to the task (after about 4 runs and long 4th gear pulls at a contant high rpm, the oil pressure drops very low and the top end ticks a little), i should get a PORTED LS6 pump?
06-30-2008, 01:06 AM
#52
TECH Addict
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lake Jackson,TX
Posts: 2,879
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was wondering this. My 408 with 250 255 640 640 113 cam in drive, hot has about 20psi in drive at a red light. I thought something was wrong. Now when she is cold and or running higher rpms she seems fine pressure wise. I have a SD tune and she is idled like 700rpms and she rocks the whole car bigtime at a redlight. Cam sounds awsome! Thanks for the info!
06-30-2008, 06:06 AM
#53
it goes so low that the gauge light comes on, and the needles drops down to about 5 psi. the top end starves a little and creates a tick. if i let the car run a while and allow the oil pump to do its job for a few minutes, the tick goes away. i had to drive the car home last night on 15 psi, opposed to a normal 40-50 psi. its the second time its done this to me....the first time i just thought i let the car run too low on oil, but now 1000 miles later its done it agian and the oil level is full.
06-30-2008, 10:52 PM
#56
You may have other issues.
Sad Storry, We have a Crappy Chrysler sebring witha 2.7L at work were the oil light would come on at idle. Been doing this since My boss opened it up 3 months ago for the second time. customer had it towed in after it died on her. I changed the oil and filter and thats when I new this thing had issues. Not to mention the ticking sound I heard. After that I took it around the block. It died on me. by the time I got it back to the shop the motor was overheating and it sounded like some one was swinging a hammer inside the block. 3 spun rod bearings later. I grabed a cleaner looking short block that we could rebuild or use for parts. Turns out the short block I grabed had some metal go through it when the timing chain broke, but at least the crank can be turned and the factory Cracked rods are reusable on this one. The other one is destine for the scrap pile...
Sad Storry, We have a Crappy Chrysler sebring witha 2.7L at work were the oil light would come on at idle. Been doing this since My boss opened it up 3 months ago for the second time. customer had it towed in after it died on her. I changed the oil and filter and thats when I new this thing had issues. Not to mention the ticking sound I heard. After that I took it around the block. It died on me. by the time I got it back to the shop the motor was overheating and it sounded like some one was swinging a hammer inside the block. 3 spun rod bearings later. I grabed a cleaner looking short block that we could rebuild or use for parts. Turns out the short block I grabed had some metal go through it when the timing chain broke, but at least the crank can be turned and the factory Cracked rods are reusable on this one. The other one is destine for the scrap pile...
07-01-2008, 05:01 PM
#57
im pretty sure this is anoil pump issue, doesnt flow enough volume. under a long load, like after 3 quick 40-120 runs on the street. crunk the car up yesterday and at idle it has perfect oil pressue and no noises at all.
Last edited by kyles2000z; 07-01-2008 at 08:55 PM.
07-02-2008, 08:13 PM
#59
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm interested in this also. I have another thread about my build but to sum it up my new 402 has around 45-50psi at idle when cold but drops off to around 20psi after driving around for 30+ minutes. When it is fully warmed and idleing at 20psi I can rev it and it does not build up over 50psi at 5500rpm. I realize it may be withen spec but as others have said. I don't feel comfortable having it at the very bottom of the spec. The rules of thumb I have heard were 10psi per 1000 rpm OR 10 psi per 100hp. Either way I want to see 70-80 psi at redline when hot and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't get there right now. The engine only has 250 miles on it and hasn't seen redline yet but 50 psi at 5500 rpm bothers me a little.
The car has the SLP "High Volume" oil pump. Around 1000 miles on the pump. Could I just shim the spring to make it put out more pressure?
07-02-2008, 08:50 PM
#60
I'm interested in this also. I have another thread about my build but to sum it up my new 402 has around 45-50psi at idle when cold but drops off to around 20psi after driving around for 30+ minutes. When it is fully warmed and idleing at 20psi I can rev it and it does not build up over 50psi at 5500rpm. I realize it may be withen spec but as others have said. I don't feel comfortable having it at the very bottom of the spec. The rules of thumb I have heard were 10psi per 1000 rpm OR 10 psi per 100hp. Either way I want to see 70-80 psi at redline when hot and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't get there right now. The engine only has 250 miles on it and hasn't seen redline yet but 50 psi at 5500 rpm bothers me a little.
The car has the SLP "High Volume" oil pump. Around 1000 miles on the pump. Could I just shim the spring to make it put out more pressure?
The car has the SLP "High Volume" oil pump. Around 1000 miles on the pump. Could I just shim the spring to make it put out more pressure?
