Its too bad your IQ isn't high enough so that we can have an intelligent conversation...
Nevermind...
Ok, I give, you win.
I take back everything I've said.

 

Wonder if we can find some common ground... we all love working on our ls1/2/6/7, etc

Weezzer has experience with aircraft maintenance. There is no room for error so every manual and spec is to be followed to the letter and has to be accurate otherwise people die. Makes sense.

The lsx manuals are accurate to a different degree than aircraft. If the balancer isn't installed right something might break, you have fix it, no big deal, no lives lost. Might have been nice if they spent more time in the manual talking about the design and why things are done to certain tolerances.

Here's my real world experience. I installed my balancer with a tool sold from a member here, I cranked it until it was snug against the stock sprocket/oil pump drive. Then I used my 1/2" drive torque wrench and cranked the bolt to the max setting (150 ft-lbs). Then I used a pipe on my 1/2" breaker bar to get it close to the leverage I used to get the stubborn bolt off (which was a lot). Fyi I used the ARP bolt so I didn't do the Tq + angle method. When I was done there was no room between any of those parts behind the bolt. Right or wrong that's what I did.

That's all I have to say. Go Pats!

 

I missed all this yesterday so I could spend some quality time on a bouncing airplane (if you know what I mean )

Anyhow I was going to put up some similar information as provided by Russ. I have installed quite a few of these and the running torque during installation to press the hub onto the crank snout I would estimate to be about 40 lb-ft (never measured it). ATI also calls for anti-seize on the crank snout during this operation. However, once it bottoms it runs up to high torque very quickly. Of course the next step is to install the old bolt and tighten to 240 lb-ft. While I never measured the running torque, I can tell you the 240 takes some effort.

Also, and I no longer have the numbers, I mentioned earlier that the ATI pulley hub I installed is a different length and results in a different installed measurement. The way I figured out what it should be was measuring the hub length with a vernier and the oil sprocket depth from the snout end and using those numbers to confirm that the hub bottomed against the crank oil sprocked once installed. Numbers came out pretty much on the money. I personally don't believe you can develop enough torque in a non-bottomed pulley to drive the accessories especially since the drive direction would tend to loosen the bolt (bolt is not left thread). Additionally, if you read some of the ATI technical articles (can't remember where I read this now) they discuss the interference fit as required for proper coupling of the crankshaft harmonics.

 

so the pully just goes on in whatever position then? since there is no keyway?

 

Yes and no. If you are removing/reinstalling stock the first step after bolt removal is to scribe the pulley and the crank so the position can be re-established. On an aftermarket obviously you can't do this. The ATI I installed was zero balanced and I had no issues with it.

 

So basically what your saying is im fucked then...Since Im using the LS1howto.com guide on doing my cam swap and it says nothing about marking anything, it says just yank it off, and put it back on. So now im fucked now that its time to put my balancer back on? What am I gonna do now?

 

Upon some reseach I came up with this. Can anyone confirm????

 

if your worried about the dampner spinning you should check out most ford late model engines. Their cam and crank gears are not even keyed. A diamond washer under the head of the bolt is "supposed" to keep them from spinning

 

I just installed mine. Crank pulley in oven for 30 minutes at 200 degrees. Tapped on 3/4 the way with 2x6 and 3lb sledge the used the bolt to tighten down the rest of the way. Would have probably gone alot easier if i had put grease on the crank pulley.

 

Yikes, hope your thrust bearings are OK. Using the threads to pull it on is not a good idea. I don't agree with the LS1howto write-up on this part of the removal/installation. I think a lot of guys have damaged their crank threads following it.

 

great thread, at least it got funny.

what i want to know (still ) is when the crank bolt is tightened a ridiculous amount whether the pulley is
a) pushed against what looks like a step in the crank as seen in the pic where the arrow for "crank snout" points to, or
b) is pushed onto the crank snout and it's an interference fit and there is a gap between the pulley and that step in the crank.

I should have done a poll.
The LS1, or LS series of engines, are all low cost manufactured engines right?
I'm trying to understand GM's rationale for how the crank pulley goes on. I can understand the cost savings by not having to key the crank, and how fast/easy it would then be to install the crank pulley, nothing is indexed and the pulley is zero balanced right (so it doesn't matter how you install it) ?

With all the stories of broken crank bolts and stripped threads I wonder if it is really necessary to tighten the crank bolt that tight? It's probably caused more by using a bolt and turning it into the crank threads to push the pulley, rather than (doing it the right way?) using a puller where the crank threads are just holding the puller tool?

oh, but i was going to ask that with the low cost of manufacturing driving everything what would be easiest- having to taper the crank snout fairly precise to get the interference fit of the pulley in the right location, or does the pulley just get pushed up against that step in the crank? I would think the latter would be easiest and cheapest, and then all you need is a pulley with a fairly precise diameter.. to +/- 0.040" according to that gm pic above?

 

Pulley butts up against the oil driving portion of the lower crank sprocket (what you have marked in your photo as "Crank "Snout"). Bolt preload helps drive the system. We can debate the crank sprocket, but the pulley is being driven by the bolt preload and the metal contact between the oil pump driving portion of the crank sprocket and the pulley hub. It all gets pushed against the step in the crank (I believe it is actually a chamfer) and the bolt tension is part of the driving force. This is more true with an aftermarket timing set, as the crank sprocket is typically 1/2" thick or less since the oil driver is a separate piece. Thus load carrying capability of the key to drive the lower sprocket of the timing chain is reduced by about 80% so the bolt tightness becomes much more critical.

I agree the drawing above doesn't show this, but based on my measurements I don't believe the drawing is an accurate representation of the final installation.

 

There seems to be a lot of opinions on how to install an aftermarket pulley. I think it would be beneficial if someone would do a simple "how to" on the correct way to install a a/mkt pulley. I'm gonna take my impact gun and tighten my old bolt down until I'm within spec and then give it a quick "beerp" to get my final spec with the new bolt. I did buy the install tool from the link that was provided on the first page of this thread and it worked great! Now that I'm getting close to the spec I removed it. The more I read on this tread the more confused I'm getting.

 

Here's what I put together:

Balancer Install Document

 

Ok I just installed my u/d pulley the way I said I would above. "THAT WAS EASY" I will be a few months before I can put some miles on the car (MAINE) but I am confident that the job was done correctly. Time will tell I guess, but I still feel that this subject has been over analized on this post. I can say that when the spec was first starting to get close I did feel the pulley "bottom out" on something??!! I checked my depth again and tightend it a little more and then installed my new ballancer bolt. After bottoming it out by hand I put the air gun on it and gave it a quick ZAP (about 1 1/2 seconds)