had enough of low end cam surge
04-16-2008, 09:19 PM
#61
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i'm tired of people saying i can fix ur car and they just want my money. i'm looking for someone who can 100% get my car tuned or i'm not paying.
04-16-2008, 09:47 PM
#62
TECH Fanatic
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is the nature of the cam, it's the tuner's job to get the computer to deal with it. It can be done, I'm new to tuning and I have 90% of the surge out of mine. Considering how bad it was when I started, and how far it's come, I'm certain it can be tuned to have almost no surge at all. I'm still working on mine but it's my first one.
04-16-2008, 09:52 PM
#63
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i'm afriad to try and tune my own car i know i'd **** something up thats why i paid 2 places to do it.... with the combined amount of money i'd have my own hpt by now
04-16-2008, 10:10 PM
#64
The reason it bucks is cause the cam doesn't supply enough vacume at that rpm.
Then on top of that you have stock gears. The trick is to get enough air in the motor
at low speeds. But that duration in a 346cid motor is on the big side despite what others say.
Also until u gear up to something like 4.10's there's going to be some surge at low rpm.
Did you ever ride a sport bike thats got a 13,000rpm redline? Well they buck at low speed
cause they are cammed for top end. And a 232 degree cam is more about top end even though they call it a torquer cam. I think that term is a bit deceiving. When i think of a torquer cam i think of a cam with something between 216 to 224 intake duration. Anything higher then you start to trade off low end for top end. In my '99 SS M6 i had heads, TR224 114lsa cam with 4.10's and my car was tuned in and it had a tad of bucking around 1,500rpm and lower. Most of it can be tuned out but big cams don't come without a price to pay. If big cams were perfect in driveability then we would all
have one. Besides going to 4.10's will get you into the power band of that cam quicker
and alot more fun. Good luck with your tune.
Then on top of that you have stock gears. The trick is to get enough air in the motor
at low speeds. But that duration in a 346cid motor is on the big side despite what others say.
Also until u gear up to something like 4.10's there's going to be some surge at low rpm.
Did you ever ride a sport bike thats got a 13,000rpm redline? Well they buck at low speed
cause they are cammed for top end. And a 232 degree cam is more about top end even though they call it a torquer cam. I think that term is a bit deceiving. When i think of a torquer cam i think of a cam with something between 216 to 224 intake duration. Anything higher then you start to trade off low end for top end. In my '99 SS M6 i had heads, TR224 114lsa cam with 4.10's and my car was tuned in and it had a tad of bucking around 1,500rpm and lower. Most of it can be tuned out but big cams don't come without a price to pay. If big cams were perfect in driveability then we would all
have one. Besides going to 4.10's will get you into the power band of that cam quicker
and alot more fun. Good luck with your tune.
04-16-2008, 10:29 PM
#65
Why dont you just let TSP do a mail tune for now? I've been on a mail tune w/ the Torquer 3 for over a year with only a little bucking/surging in very low rpms...but thats usually only when Im in a higher gear than I should be. I sent a list of my mods along w/ the PCM, and after a couple days I was back on the road. Still going to do a full tune because it needs to be leaned out some, but it works fine right now. I have 4:10s which help a lot Im sure, but there weren't any problems the 1 night I drove it before the gears got installed. Its worth a shot anyway.
Oh, and they even re-did it for free within a year of me first getting it just because I wanted their most "up-to-date" tune for it. Call them and see what they say.
Hope this helps!
Oh, and they even re-did it for free within a year of me first getting it just because I wanted their most "up-to-date" tune for it. Call them and see what they say.
Hope this helps!
04-17-2008, 12:39 AM
#66
SLP Firehawk, we have in common dissatisfaction with bucking. Everyone’s definition of “good drivability” differs. Now, if you have a “bucking bronco” something is wrong. I wonder if our expectations are reasonable, though. Can you power through the bucking by giving it more throttle? How people drive definitely affects the amount of bucking they will see. Do you know if your tach is accurate? Mine reads ~150 – 200rpm high. That means the uninformed person driving my vehicle would wonder why they could not cruise at part throttle in 1st at what appears to be 1500, when in fact they me be at 1300rpm. 200rpm can make a difference.
I am not entirely dissatisfied w/ my advertised 224/228 110lsa cam. Based on how my car behaves now though, I think I would have preferred a smaller cam. The CompCams 216/220 cam was recommended to me by the shop that did my exhaust. How did you like it? In retrospect, I think that cam would have been a better choice for me. If I wanted to offset lower top end hp w/ that cam, I could have simply thrown more money at it. Milled AFR 205’s, flycut pistons, and a ported 90/90 setup as opposed to my Patriot Stage I LS6 heads, LS6 intake, and ported stock TB would have reclaimed any lost HP, and maybe more. It would have been another $2k, but I could have switched my diet over to Ramen noodles. 
….Did you ever ride a sport bike thats got a 13,000rpm redline? Well they buck at low speed cause they are cammed for top end. And a 232 degree cam is more about top end even though they call it a torquer cam. I think that term is a bit deceiving. When i think of a torquer cam i think of a cam with something between 216 to 224 intake duration. Anything higher then you start to trade off low end for top end. In my '99 SS M6 i had heads, TR224 114lsa cam with 4.10's and my car was tuned in and it had a tad of bucking around 1,500rpm and lower. Most of it can be tuned out but big cams don't come without a price to pay. If big cams were perfect in driveability then we would all have one…..
04-17-2008, 05:25 AM
#67
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason it bucks is cause the cam doesn't supply enough vacume at that rpm.
Then on top of that you have stock gears. The trick is to get enough air in the motor
at low speeds. But that duration in a 346cid motor is on the big side despite what others say.
Also until u gear up to something like 4.10's there's going to be some surge at low rpm.
Did you ever ride a sport bike thats got a 13,000rpm redline? Well they buck at low speed
cause they are cammed for top end. And a 232 degree cam is more about top end even though they call it a torquer cam. I think that term is a bit deceiving. When i think of a torquer cam i think of a cam with something between 216 to 224 intake duration. Anything higher then you start to trade off low end for top end. In my '99 SS M6 i had heads, TR224 114lsa cam with 4.10's and my car was tuned in and it had a tad of bucking around 1,500rpm and lower. Most of it can be tuned out but big cams don't come without a price to pay. If big cams were perfect in driveability then we would all
have one. Besides going to 4.10's will get you into the power band of that cam quicker
and alot more fun. Good luck with your tune.
Then on top of that you have stock gears. The trick is to get enough air in the motor
at low speeds. But that duration in a 346cid motor is on the big side despite what others say.
Also until u gear up to something like 4.10's there's going to be some surge at low rpm.
Did you ever ride a sport bike thats got a 13,000rpm redline? Well they buck at low speed
cause they are cammed for top end. And a 232 degree cam is more about top end even though they call it a torquer cam. I think that term is a bit deceiving. When i think of a torquer cam i think of a cam with something between 216 to 224 intake duration. Anything higher then you start to trade off low end for top end. In my '99 SS M6 i had heads, TR224 114lsa cam with 4.10's and my car was tuned in and it had a tad of bucking around 1,500rpm and lower. Most of it can be tuned out but big cams don't come without a price to pay. If big cams were perfect in driveability then we would all
have one. Besides going to 4.10's will get you into the power band of that cam quicker
and alot more fun. Good luck with your tune.
i had them in earlyer in the weak but the pattern was wrong and they wined
but i did still have bucking at part throttle it did move my rpm range up alot and my speedo was off so i was really doing almost 10 mph less than i thought i was..
regaurdless it didn't take care of that bucking problem
people say its all in the tune i might try getting my car tuned at one more place and if they dont get it right i'm done spending money on something that isn't going to get fixed
04-18-2008, 12:52 AM
#69
On The Tree
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 60 mi SE of Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it is a little ambitious, to be honest, expecting the car to be able to idle along nicely at 60mph in a .70 0verdrive gear (5th). Even the stock cars don't really like idling along at <1500 in 5th gear, why would a cammed car?
To put it into perspective, I use 5th at 80kph - about 50mph at the lowest, with 3.73:1 rear. Why would you put added strain on your gearbox by using overdrive gears when it isn't necessary?
Anyway, not a criticism, simply an observation. I hope you sort the issue out in any event.
Cheers,
Macca
To put it into perspective, I use 5th at 80kph - about 50mph at the lowest, with 3.73:1 rear. Why would you put added strain on your gearbox by using overdrive gears when it isn't necessary?
Anyway, not a criticism, simply an observation. I hope you sort the issue out in any event.
Cheers,
Macca
04-20-2008, 11:14 AM
#70
SLP Firehawk, we have in common dissatisfaction with bucking. Everyone’s definition of “good drivability” differs. Now, if you have a “bucking bronco” something is wrong. I wonder if our expectations are reasonable, though. Can you power through the bucking by giving it more throttle? How people drive definitely affects the amount of bucking they will see. Do you know if your tach is accurate? Mine reads ~150 – 200rpm high. That means the uninformed person driving my vehicle would wonder why they could not cruise at part throttle in 1st at what appears to be 1500, when in fact they me be at 1300rpm. 200rpm can make a difference.
I am not entirely dissatisfied w/ my advertised 224/228 110lsa cam. Based on how my car behaves now though, I think I would have preferred a smaller cam. The CompCams 216/220 cam was recommended to me by the shop that did my exhaust. How did you like it? In retrospect, I think that cam would have been a better choice for me. If I wanted to offset lower top end hp w/ that cam, I could have simply thrown more money at it. Milled AFR 205’s, flycut pistons, and a ported 90/90 setup as opposed to my Patriot Stage I LS6 heads, LS6 intake, and ported stock TB would have reclaimed any lost HP, and maybe more. It would have been another $2k, but I could have switched my diet over to Ramen noodles.
I am not entirely dissatisfied w/ my advertised 224/228 110lsa cam. Based on how my car behaves now though, I think I would have preferred a smaller cam. The CompCams 216/220 cam was recommended to me by the shop that did my exhaust. How did you like it? In retrospect, I think that cam would have been a better choice for me. If I wanted to offset lower top end hp w/ that cam, I could have simply thrown more money at it. Milled AFR 205’s, flycut pistons, and a ported 90/90 setup as opposed to my Patriot Stage I LS6 heads, LS6 intake, and ported stock TB would have reclaimed any lost HP, and maybe more. It would have been another $2k, but I could have switched my diet over to Ramen noodles.
my '99 SS M6 and liked it so much when i did heads and cam on my WS6 A4
i went with the 216/220 again. It makes awesome mid-range torque and still
has strong top end power despite the fact it's a small cam. But i know with
my setup in my sig i was pushing 400rwhp. And some sponsors on here
also believed i was either at 400rwhp or pretty close to it. It was fast on the
street even before the N2O. But another good cam that has great manners
is Comps 218/224 cam. You can order this cam on a newer designed lobes
instead of running the low lift 218/224 cam. It had .527/.535 originally.
But Comp told me they can build the cam with their more aggressive lobes.
LOL..Ramen noodles.
04-20-2008, 11:50 AM
#71
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too be honest i LOVED the Comp 216/220 .525/.532 114lsa cam. I ran it in
my '99 SS M6 and liked it so much when i did heads and cam on my WS6 A4
i went with the 216/220 again. It makes awesome mid-range torque and still
has strong top end power despite the fact it's a small cam. But i know with
my setup in my sig i was pushing 400rwhp. And some sponsors on here
also believed i was either at 400rwhp or pretty close to it. It was fast on the
street even before the N2O. But another good cam that has great manners
is Comps 218/224 cam. You can order this cam on a newer designed lobes
instead of running the low lift 218/224 cam. It had .527/.535 originally.
But Comp told me they can build the cam with their more aggressive lobes.
LOL..Ramen noodles.
my '99 SS M6 and liked it so much when i did heads and cam on my WS6 A4
i went with the 216/220 again. It makes awesome mid-range torque and still
has strong top end power despite the fact it's a small cam. But i know with
my setup in my sig i was pushing 400rwhp. And some sponsors on here
also believed i was either at 400rwhp or pretty close to it. It was fast on the
street even before the N2O. But another good cam that has great manners
is Comps 218/224 cam. You can order this cam on a newer designed lobes
instead of running the low lift 218/224 cam. It had .527/.535 originally.
But Comp told me they can build the cam with their more aggressive lobes.
LOL..Ramen noodles.
04-20-2008, 02:08 PM
#72
Launching!
iTrader: (29)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Homestead, Fl
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would think that cam should be able to be tuned with good street manners, I know a guy running the texas speed 233/239- 595/603 cam and his only surges a little at low rpms . I'm running a 226/226 -585/585 on a 112 lsa and my car has hardly any surge at all and I am still on the factory tune . I am getting it tuned real soon ,but I am amazed how well my car runs with this cam on the stock tune !
04-20-2008, 04:13 PM
#73
I would think that cam should be able to be tuned with good street manners, I know a guy running the texas speed 233/239- 595/603 cam and his only surges a little at low rpms . I'm running a 226/226 -585/585 on a 112 lsa and my car has hardly any surge at all and I am still on the factory tune . I am getting it tuned real soon ,but I am amazed how well my car runs with this cam on the stock tune !
08-09-2010, 10:51 AM
#74
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
did you ever get rid of the bucking and surging?, i have same probleme with 402 and 236-242 cam, and about 7 time being tuned. this tread finished witout any solution.
08-09-2010, 12:41 PM
#76
for every knowledgeable, experienced tuner out there, there are probably 5 that think they know what they are doing but actually dont know ****.
I know, I used to work with one of them.
I know, I used to work with one of them.
08-09-2010, 03:39 PM
#78
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no i can't tune . but thinking over winter on getting set up and learning if i cant get it fixed by my tuner, 7 hours round trip every time i go and it's been 7 times i go. no others around. it's just he has the same symptoms as i do have now. would have been nice to see what solution came out of it if any, i usaly enjoy driving my car all summer and now i barely take it out after spending 14 000 on new engine and acessorise.
08-09-2010, 05:08 PM
#79
no i can't tune . but thinking over winter on getting set up and learning if i cant get it fixed by my tuner, 7 hours round trip every time i go and it's been 7 times i go. no others around. it's just he has the same symptoms as i do have now. would have been nice to see what solution came out of it if any, i usaly enjoy driving my car all summer and now i barely take it out after spending 14 000 on new engine and acessorise.
Bill
08-09-2010, 07:21 PM
#80
TECH Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hellertown, PA
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nope never got it to completely go away but putting 411 gears in their helped. its not so bad when its warm outside but in the cold it sucks. also its hard to drive when its just warming up if you dont give it enough gas it wants to get do some gay stall thing and almost makes you get into an accident. I am going to change the cam this winter i'm sick of it and i only put 5k on the cam