BADZ

iTrader: (5)

My fault as I did not know this:

Actuall John went 10.86@124 with a stock untouched shortblock,he went 10.66@127 with a rebuilt shortblock that has better pistons,rings,bearings and has been balanced.He also has LS6 heads on the car now so to say he went 10.6 with a stock GM shortblock is slightly incorrect.

Thanks for the info JS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: BADZ ]</small>

EuG

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am still amazed that this is still going on.
What should be the proper way to handle a big rwhp number? should everyone just keep it quiet, and not tell anyone? what should we do?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Answer:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the only way to verify the “legitimacy” of these H/C packages would be to have a few sets of these of heads/cam/intake/headers/”whatever else is needed” packages shipped out to totally independent customers (in different parts of the country preferably), have ‘em installed and see the results.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Until that happens I can guarantee that this won’t stop.
No dyno at “other shop” or even track numbers would solve any of it.

People can and will doubt actual ci, solid vs hyd, CR, race gas, blame the weather/track prep/driver/weight or
just plain not believe the info presented.

Unless it’s verified by a FEW independent people, some will doubt it….
My $.02

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: EuG ]</small>

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Good discussion guys, lets keep things civil this time around. The padlock is on standby <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Personally, I believe the dyno numbers but I think there is more to getting those results than some members can understand. Its not as simple as bolting some parts together.

Congrats to Jason on the new best 346ci record! Gotta be happy for my M6 driving brothers out there. hehe

I also think we will see all-motor 346ci 9s within a year. LS1s rule!

JS, Raughammer has LS6 pistons and stock rods/rings/crank/bearings. Its basically what was laying around when he spun a rod bearing and was a cheap fix. There is no power difference between an LS1 and LS6 bottom end. Any experienced engine builder will agree with that, they know that the heads are the key to making power.

-Tony

Fenris Ulf

PSJ: By the same token their are plenty of heads cam LS6 cars by MTI, ARE and other big name companies putting out only 420 rwhp. How do you explain these cars that are a far cry away even with the superior LS6 heads?

Gator: Also keep in mind Jason's car has way more drivetrain loss and for that matter was not even on the same dyno. Comparitive conclusions of that nature are not very accurate.

Burnout: The cam specs posted by Cartek are very close to what many board members have been running for years, so they did not just recently come out with some super-secret intake opening point that makes mucho power or anything like that.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

I've seen a MTI stage II/C2 cam M6 run 425rwhp w/o tuning so 430rwhp was possible. Thru Mac headers and stock ORP and B&B Triflow. I sure as heck see 450rwhp or more possible with LS6 heads and an aggressive tune.

jfm

iTrader: (4)

Most of us run pretty much out of the box header,Ypipe combos.I think there is volumes to be said about the LG exhaust set up and his heads cam combo.

My FLPs use a 2.75" Y pipe and I dont know how equal they are in length.When I installed the FLPs I got 2 tenths at the track with no other changes.Could there be more with a new header,Ypipe combo?I don't have the cash for R&D but I think 10 to 15 HP could be gained.

Air in and air out,the big air pump[our motors].

JS

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the correction Tony I stand corrected, but that fact still remains the shortblock was prepped and balanced and any experienced engine builder would agree its worth more than less.

Not taking anything away from John,The guy works real hard at getting his car to perform.This post is pretty interesting,lets hear more opinions...

JS

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

I am fascinated and interested in the exhaust changes that we are seeing. For a long time we have focused on the intake side of things, new heads, cams, ported intakes, ect. But what about that exhaust. When was the last time we saw something new and different from headers?

The dynatechs were a stepped header, but many people found that they only benefitted larger cubed motors, a.k.a. JS's and Cartek's research (still assuming we're talking about 346").

What about a 4-2-1 type header? I think some of the Holdens have this design, would it benefit our ls1's the same way or can it not be done due to physical constraints in our engine bays?

I truly beleive a lot of these claims of high hp numbers. Just like what has already been said, tuners are now focusing on both the intake and exhaust side of the equation.

Good job guys.

NoGo

iTrader: (2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by EuG:
<strong> [QUOTE]
Unless it’s verified by a FEW independent people, some will doubt it….
My $.02 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It doesn't matter what us shops do, some people are just not going to believe the numbers.

Like LG said everybody has a different suggestion on how we can "verify" our numbers. Unfortunately, no matter what is done you never satisfy the naysayes (even with track times, as proven in this thread). People always come up with another reason why the numbers were never layed down or why the car runs fast. It really is unfortunate because legitmate shops are getting painted as tricksters rather than the best in the buisness.

jmX

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NoGo:
<strong> Unfortunately, no matter what is done you never satisfy the naysayes (even with track times, as proven in this thread). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is BS and you know it. A long time ago 430rwhp heads/cam packages were unbelievable and people needed proof. Soon, the results became more common on dyno's around the country and people finally believed that yes, its possible. NOW, the same thing is happening. People will believe it once it becomes widespread and proven. I want to see it happen on my local dyno or a dyno I trust and I'll be sold! People are not going to beleive every new thing they read on the internet.

JS

iTrader: (4)

My personal opinion and gut feelings....

On a 346 thats running a solid roller a stepped or big tube is fine provided your running a 6sp or a THD400 w/brake and 7000+ shift points....

Most H/C setups should use a 1 3/4in L/T with a 2.75 or 3in Y to keep TQ broad threw the rpm range and just run a cutout in the intermediate pipe.U could run duel cutouts but again how much better are they over a single?

Collector extensions are very good provided u take the time to tune the car,otherwise u could slow the car down.

Again JMHO.......

JS
Cartek S2X
11.14/1.47/122.01
3460lbs

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: JS ]</small>

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

My heads/cam setup put out 446rwhp and ran 127.1mph. My take on this whole thing is its a bunch of dyno BS. The cars putting out 465rwhp are no quicker than the cars putting out 415rwhp. What does that tell you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

NoGo

iTrader: (2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jmX:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NoGo:
<strong> Unfortunately, no matter what is done you never satisfy the naysayes (even with track times, as proven in this thread). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is BS and you know it. A long time ago 430rwhp heads/cam packages were unbelievable and people needed proof. Soon, the results became more common on dyno's around the country and people finally believed that yes, its possible. NOW, the same thing is happening. People will believe it once it becomes widespread and proven. I want to see it happen on my local dyno or a dyno I trust and I'll be sold! People are not going to beleive every new thing they read on the internet. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BS, right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Have you even read any of the threads that initiated this one?

Yes, people will eventually believe it in a year or so. My point is that instead of people waiting around for the track results to start rolling in they immediately insuate shop dishonesty. It is an unfortunate ramification for those shops willing to spend for R&D.

NoGo

iTrader: (2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Terry Burger:
<strong> My heads/cam setup put out 446rwhp and ran 127.1mph. My take on this whole thing is its a bunch of dyno BS. The cars putting out 465rwhp are no quicker than the cars putting out 415rwhp. What does that tell you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It tells me not all cars weigh the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

EuG

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunately, no matter what is done you never satisfy the naysayes (even with track times, as proven in this thread).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree.

Yes, it’s true - tack numbers are not best way for an accurate comparison.
There’s way too many variables (weight, weather, traction, gearing, suspension, driver skill, etc. etc.)

However, what if different people started to have the same package installed and dynoded at a different local shops in different parts of the country and all dyno within 5-10HP.
Who would doubt it then? Only idiots…
<img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />

BYBYC5

it also tells me that dyno numbers mean squat! cmon 415 -430 who cares unless your a dyno *****. WHERE DO YOU MAKE THE POWER IS THE ????. 415 at 4500-redline vs 430 at 6800. no brainer there. DYNOS ARE A TUNING TOOL. take it to thr track to see what ya can do."magical" h/c package. i dont think so, lots of misc things come into play, such as tunning. let someone eles install the "package" and give it their tune and it wont be the same. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

NataSS Inc

iTrader: (9)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by EuG:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am still amazed that this is still going on.
What should be the proper way to handle a big rwhp number? should everyone just keep it quiet, and not tell anyone? what should we do?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Answer:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the only way to verify the “legitimacy” of these H/C packages would be to have a few sets of these of heads/cam/intake/headers/”whatever else is needed” packages shipped out to totally independent customers (in different parts of the country preferably), have ‘em installed and see the results.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Until that happens I can guarantee that this won’t stop.
No dyno at “other shop” or even track numbers would solve any of it.

People can and will doubt actual ci, solid vs hyd, CR, race gas, blame the weather/track prep/driver/weight or
just plain not believe the info presented.

Unless it’s verified by a FEW independent people, some will doubt it….
My $.02 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would love to see this happen. But from what I have seen over time on this board is that everyone down south seems to have much higher numbers with one package than they do up here in the North West. We have a running joke here about "Texas" HP (not flaming anyone here). But the day I can have a dyno up here match the dyno numbers of you southern guys, we will be sold. Every time one of us gets into a cam and head package the numbers are dramatically lower than what the "advertised" or "common" HP numbers are.
I dont want to bring names into it but after throwing large amounts of dollars into a cam and head package with every bolt on you can imagine and tuning I dyno'd almost 25RWHP less than "advertised". Same has happened to just about everyone else up here. So its either something squirelly going on or the air up here sucks.

I wont spend another dollar on ANYONES heads/cam/intake/TB/pulley/flux capicitor (you get the idea) until I see at least 3-4 independant dyno runs from different places in the nation and start seeing track times.

Sorry I have been waiting to say that for a while.

NoGo

iTrader: (2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by EuG:
<strong> [QUOTE]
However, what if different people started to have the same package installed and dynoded at a different local shops in different parts of the country and all dyno within 5-10HP.
Who would doubt it then? Only idiots…
<img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These are single owner shops that we are talking about. It takes ALOT of capital and time to disperse packages about the country and wait for individual results to come in. We don't have development schedules or R&D budgets. Almost all shops work off of the "holy **** that sure as hell worked well" principle.

This thread is going to the ******* here pretty soon, so I'll just rap it up.

My only point was that it is unfortunate the way shops are admonished and discredited for spending the R&D and making the effort to inform you the buyer of progress. The ultimate result is going to be a loss of information for the non-local "do it yourselfers" that make up this board as shops refuse to post their latest update. It is unfortunate, that was my only point.

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

Its the same in Florida as well.. Very few cars make it to 400rwhp on Stage 2 H/C packages.. Too many variables to really compare.. I dyno'd the other day at a local dyno place and put down 8rwhp and 10rwtq more horsepower than I did 2 weeks ago and it was colder then.. I dyno'd minus the maft because I forgot to bring it The only thing I really did different was ride around a while with the cutout open before dyno'ing the car and letting her cool down between runs.. What is going to be interesting is I hear that LG is coming to our Vette/Viper/F-body shootout this Sunday and word is he is going to dyno the car.. I think we will find out if it is a Texas/Louisiana/NJ/California thing shortly.. Anything near 450rwhp would prove to me that they are making some serious horsepower when the highest 346ci I have seen dyno was almost 440rwhp out of a Z06 with 3.42's. Thats one car out of many that started at 390rwhp b4 H/C package..

pony killer

thats why alot of these guys dont have shops of their own, alot of naysayers who would rather bash people for their efforts rather than try to learn from them and benifit the whole industry. <img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />