TFS 215 vs ET 215's
03-22-2008, 08:50 AM
#21
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I never said that the head needs to break any records. It should ET/MPH better or equal to other cars that have similar combos, but different heads. You're absolutely correct that there are a ton of variables that effect ET, but after seeing thousands of peoples ET's and mph with their setups you can kind of diagnose and disregard whats obviously helping or hurting someones ET/MPH. Results of any kind are hard to find for the ETP 215's. I find it hard to believe that no one is running these on a 346 that drag races. I'm not saying that they are a bad head, I'm saying that no one has given any decent results with them for the given combo. TFS results are solid, they work
03-22-2008, 09:02 AM
#22
IF (and its a big if for most) you get the valvetrain right an ET casting will make a little more power in my opinion, based on what weve seen on flowbench and a-b testing with some castings etc. Your average guy will be very well off using the TFS castings, theyve shown to make good power as well. We use all three of the aftermarket castings on various setups for various purposes.
The reason why you dont see many ETP results that work, is because most just dont get them TO work up to capability.
The reason why you dont see many ETP results that work, is because most just dont get them TO work up to capability.
03-22-2008, 12:12 PM
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IF (and its a big if for most) you get the valvetrain right an ET casting will make a little more power in my opinion, based on what weve seen on flowbench...The reason why you dont see many ETP results that work, is because most just dont get them TO work up to capability.
03-22-2008, 02:48 PM
#24
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I never said that the head needs to break any records. It should ET/MPH better or equal to other cars that have similar combos, but different heads. You're absolutely correct that there are a ton of variables that effect ET, but after seeing thousands of peoples ET's and mph with their setups you can kind of diagnose and disregard whats obviously helping or hurting someones ET/MPH. Results of any kind are hard to find for the ETP 215's. I find it hard to believe that no one is running these on a 346 that drag races. I'm not saying that they are a bad head, I'm saying that no one has given any decent results with them for the given combo. TFS results are solid, they work
03-22-2008, 07:13 PM
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simply stating that Tfs has been around for a long while and they have proven themselves and there is no further proving needing to be done.
03-22-2008, 10:34 PM
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How do you know that they work? where is the proof? give me a link or something. I just want to see track results of ETP 215's on motor that rival their competitors to justify shelling out the extra coin on them. I dont want dyno results and I dont want pictures of their pretty little runners.
I found this while looking for ETP results: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....92&postcount=5
It seems like maybe I hit a soft spot. You have/had a set of their heads yourself. Its an old post, did you ever get them on? or still have them? Any results? Going off of your sig, it seems like you run decent for your mods. So slap on those heads and give us some real world results. They may be the best head in the world for a stock cube LS1, but until its proven everything else is just speculation. Show the OP why their money should go to ETP over Trick Flow.
03-22-2008, 11:02 PM
#28
How do you know that they work? where is the proof? give me a link or something. I just want to see track results of ETP 215's on motor that rival their competitors to justify shelling out the extra coin on them. I dont want dyno results and I dont want pictures of their pretty little runners.
They may be the best head in the world for a stock cube LS1, but until its proven everything else is just speculation. Show the OP why their money should go to ETP over Trick Flow.
They may be the best head in the world for a stock cube LS1, but until its proven everything else is just speculation. Show the OP why their money should go to ETP over Trick Flow.
There are cam only guys that have been faster than you so the holier than thou stuff is BS.
I have ET 225's they work. I have seen AFR 225's work and TFS 235's work.
03-23-2008, 07:11 AM
#29
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How do you know that they work? where is the proof? give me a link or something. I just want to see track results of ETP 215's on motor that rival their competitors to justify shelling out the extra coin on them. I dont want dyno results and I dont want pictures of their pretty little runners.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=etp+215
450 rwhp and 11.1 @ 121. Not too shabby. Allignc5 has also had very good results on his C5 Vette with ETP 215's as I believe he trapped 123.
So you're saying ETP's dyno great but ET bad at the track? How is that possible where it is specifically the heads faullt?
Once the power is there is it not then up to gears, suspension, tires, raceweight, ect to get the rest of the job done?
Nope. Sold them so I could buy ETP 4.0 bore LS7 heads so I can put them on a 408 or 416 SB. I know they probably suck too. ETP's are dyno queens but can't run at the track or something like that.
Show me some of these bad performing ETP setups. I want to see for myself why they suck as bad as you say they do. I have heard nothing but great things until now.
03-23-2008, 03:02 PM
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I'm assuming that you said that to rattle me because it has nothing to do with this thread. You're the big time racer, why don't you figure out for me why I'm not faster since I obviously don't have a clue. I'll go out on a whim say maybe its because the H/C combo I have were put on the car in OCT and I'm not even close to optimizing the setup yet. I don't need to go further into detail because thats not what this thread is about. I dont think I have been "hoiler than thou", I've simply questioned the track results ,or lack there of, of the ETP 215's. Isn't that what this board is about asking questions? There are more positive track results that incorporate TFS 215's into the combo than ETP. Other than myself, I'll throw out PSJ's and JNorris's cars into the mix. Mild to wild setups, different gears, different converters, different cams, different raceweights, different purposes in general have all found themselves running similar ETs and mph. Might just be coincidence because we all know there are a ton of variables at work. On the dyno, The TFS head seems to like many different cam choices. We havent seen that with ETP's. The whole basis of my arguement in favor of TFS is not the bad results by ETP, its the abundance of good results for TFS and lack of results for ETP. Maybe I shoulda just chimed in with a simple "TFS dumdumdum!"? Sweet. Good for you, but this thread is not about those heads or how the heads react to power adders. I'm not attacking ETP as a whole. If I had a power adder or bigger cube setup, I would be looking into ETP heads as an option. I'm questioning one particular head for a particular application. Why would you attack me for that? Please think before you post, I do. If I woulda came on tech and saw your response after I had came home from the bar last night, my reply would have been more like "Hey get fucked!"
03-23-2008, 04:20 PM
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If you buy TFS heads from TEA you'll get them with .650 springs and pushrods for $2400. The ETP 215's are $2400 plus spring upgrade and you need to buy your own pushrods. The reason I mention the springs is just because you see the way this board's direction is going with cam selection is almost mandated to have a .650 spring. If you know of some place where they can be bought with the same options for the same price, let people know.
I'll agree not too shabby on motor, decent on spray. They seem just to be shakedowns, so hopefully there is more in it. I'm not trying to be picky, but I think we prolly need more info on the setup. such as cam choice, weight, amongst other things. I think we both know that those are going to be the breakers as to whether the motor runs are good or not.
I'll have to look into him more, of the top of my head isnt he the one that pulled over 500 with a streetsweeper cam?
Its happened before with ARE heads. Cars with the same setups, only real difference being heads, would dyno within a few hp of each other and then the ARE's would get dragged at the track.
Yes, but if all variables are similar except the heads shouldnt we look into them as a possible explanation for either helping or hurting the combo?
I'm not going to say anything bad about your way of doing it, It works. I'll just say that my way is slightly different. I'll pick the powerband I want to play in and then mod according to that. Once I have all the variables set I'll then have someone come up with a cam for the whole setup. Until that point , I'll just use a solid cam thats more universal per say.
I have some ideas of some bad performing ETP setups that have decent ET's, but when you look at the combo you think to yourself that it shoulda went quicker. I'm not going to bring up any bad setups in public. I would like to stay more positive showing what the products can do and not where they have failed. I'm sure both heads have failing combos that may or may not be the heads fault. We both know that I never said that they sucked. Thats far from saying that I just haven't seen any perform on par yet against the other heads with similar combos. My point is Trick Flow has results and ETP doesnt have many results out there period, whether good or bad to prove themselves. I'm sorry if you took offense that I didnt believe you simply because you stated they looked like art and worked. I'm a human, not a bird. I buy performance mods based on performance not how shiny they are. Now I admit, If I had my parrot making all of my modding decisions then I would own ETP 215's over the TFS, but I'd prolly also be rolling on dubs
See this is where we have a difference of opinion. You don't just slap on heads and go. You gotta match the heads with the right cam and intake. Then you get the power. Once you get the power you need to see where the powerband is and set up the gears & stall appropriately. Add traction and you're good to go
03-23-2008, 04:58 PM
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anyway, yeah we all know they're both great heads...but back to original question, which would work best with MY setup? I know the heads aren't the single determining factor of ETs and overall performance, i'm just questioning which would be a better foundation for my car. I've basically decided it will depend on how soon i can get the ETPs...I'll find out tomorrow. If its within a couple weeks then i'll order the ETPs, if not i'll go with TFS. I don't really think it will be a life or death decision. both heads flow great and if i can get great looks with the ETPs along with reduced valve angle and more PTV clearance, then I'll definitely go with them. Then that will provide another track time for ETPs shortly! haha
03-23-2008, 06:02 PM
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"The popular "StreetSweeper" Camshaft
Specs: 236*-240*-111*-.630"-.610" ''
Nevermind, i found them! Great numbers...how would this compare to an MS4 (239/242 .649"/.612" 111 LSA) in an F-body???
Specs: 236*-240*-111*-.630"-.610" ''
Nevermind, i found them! Great numbers...how would this compare to an MS4 (239/242 .649"/.612" 111 LSA) in an F-body???
03-23-2008, 06:12 PM
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Take a look at the thread I opened on my engine build up, all the specs of the camshaft are inside, plus videos, graphs, dyno sheets and data...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/648228-video-idle-plus-streetability-wot-my-511rwhp-fti.html
I went only once to the drag strip and burned a Textralia Exo-Skel, since then with my new RPS Twin carbon I didn't had the opportunity to go back.
JFYI, I rev my engine on a daily bases to 7200/7400rpm with no valve float as show in some data and video in the above mentioned thread.
Don't hesitate to ask if you don't find an answer in my thread.
Christian
03-23-2008, 07:51 PM
#38
Most people in this thread I would assume have not owned both heads and track tested them on similar combos to give fair comparison. If we're basing everything off of dyno results, I have already stated that the ETPs seem to dyno well. At the same time, you can look and see that there a lot more good trick flow results out there. GrannySShifting with knowledge of both the heads in question has told us that the valvetrain setup is tricky on the ETP's to get more power out of them. This would make the Trick Flows more user friendly for the average guy. Looking at this as a potential customer, why am I going to buy ETP's for more money and more potential headache to get similar, maybe a few hp more, results on the dyno and lack of testimony on the track? Aren't you a racer yourself? That doesn't depend on dynos and wants to see what gets it done on the track? Weren't you in a high drama thread last week telling someone to prove their dyno #'s at the track? Which part do you want to play? The pot or the kettle? because I'm open to both. Its looking like your response to me is only because I'm not on you're side of the debate.
Yes there are cam only guys and H/C guys that are faster than me. I think you'll agree that it is a short list though. I'm assuming that you said that to rattle me because it has nothing to do with this thread. You're the big time racer, why don't you figure out for me why I'm not faster since I obviously don't have a clue. I'll go out on a whim say maybe its because the H/C combo I have were put on the car in OCT and I'm not even close to optimizing the setup yet. I don't need to go further into detail because thats not what this thread is about. I dont think I have been "hoiler than thou", I've simply questioned the track results ,or lack there of, of the ETP 215's. Isn't that what this board is about asking questions? There are more positive track results that incorporate TFS 215's into the combo than ETP. Other than myself, I'll throw out PSJ's and JNorris's cars into the mix. Mild to wild setups, different gears, different converters, different cams, different raceweights, different purposes in general have all found themselves running similar ETs and mph. Might just be coincidence because we all know there are a ton of variables at work. On the dyno, The TFS head seems to like many different cam choices. We havent seen that with ETP's. The whole basis of my arguement in favor of TFS is not the bad results by ETP, its the abundance of good results for TFS and lack of results for ETP. Maybe I shoulda just chimed in with a simple "TFS dumdumdum!"?
Sweet. Good for you, but this thread is not about those heads or how the heads react to power adders. I'm not attacking ETP as a whole. If I had a power adder or bigger cube setup, I would be looking into ETP heads as an option. I'm questioning one particular head for a particular application. Why would you attack me for that? Please think before you post, I do. If I woulda came on tech and saw your response after I had came home from the bar last night, my reply would have been more like "Hey get fucked!"
Yes there are cam only guys and H/C guys that are faster than me. I think you'll agree that it is a short list though.
I'm assuming that you said that to rattle me because it has nothing to do with this thread. You're the big time racer, why don't you figure out for me why I'm not faster since I obviously don't have a clue. I'll go out on a whim say maybe its because the H/C combo I have were put on the car in OCT and I'm not even close to optimizing the setup yet. I don't need to go further into detail because thats not what this thread is about. I dont think I have been "hoiler than thou", I've simply questioned the track results ,or lack there of, of the ETP 215's. Isn't that what this board is about asking questions? There are more positive track results that incorporate TFS 215's into the combo than ETP. Other than myself, I'll throw out PSJ's and JNorris's cars into the mix. Mild to wild setups, different gears, different converters, different cams, different raceweights, different purposes in general have all found themselves running similar ETs and mph. Might just be coincidence because we all know there are a ton of variables at work. On the dyno, The TFS head seems to like many different cam choices. We havent seen that with ETP's. The whole basis of my arguement in favor of TFS is not the bad results by ETP, its the abundance of good results for TFS and lack of results for ETP. Maybe I shoulda just chimed in with a simple "TFS dumdumdum!"? Sweet. Good for you, but this thread is not about those heads or how the heads react to power adders. I'm not attacking ETP as a whole. If I had a power adder or bigger cube setup, I would be looking into ETP heads as an option. I'm questioning one particular head for a particular application. Why would you attack me for that? Please think before you post, I do. If I woulda came on tech and saw your response after I had came home from the bar last night, my reply would have been more like "Hey get fucked!"
2nd I said all 3 heads are very good and can be made to work.
Where are all these record breaking TFS headed cars?
I am one of the reasons GrannySShifting has the knowledge of all these heads.
I am one of VERY few who has done back to back to back testing of ET and AFR on there own car.
The valve train stuff is not rocket science or black magic.
Why dont you go out and be the record setter for TFS, then maybe someone will care about your opinion.
03-24-2008, 04:02 AM
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well i talked to thunder and texas speed today about the ET heads and they said it can be anywhere from a week to 6 months before i would be able to get them...they're supposed to call ET monday morning and then let me know. I have the money now to completely finish my car, so if the wait is more then a couple weeks i'm going with TFS. I've also thought about the PTV clearance issue that ls2bait mentioned and I think i'll need it with the MS4 because I want to mill as much as possible for more compression. So basically it will come down to the wait for ET heads.
So how much hp/tq and track times is everyone getting with these heads?
So how much hp/tq and track times is everyone getting with these heads?
6 month fr etp's???
why is their always a delay with the et heads
Nick--
Last edited by njc.corp; 03-24-2008 at 04:18 AM.
03-24-2008, 05:48 AM
#40
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If you buy TFS heads from TEA you'll get them with .650 springs and pushrods for $2400. The ETP 215's are $2400 plus spring upgrade and you need to buy your own pushrods. The reason I mention the springs is just because you see the way this board's direction is going with cam selection is almost mandated to have a .650 spring. If you know of some place where they can be bought with the same options for the same price, let people know.
I'll agree not too shabby on motor, decent on spray. They seem just to be shakedowns, so hopefully there is more in it. I'm not trying to be picky, but I think we prolly need more info on the setup. such as cam choice, weight, amongst other things. I think we both know that those are going to be the breakers as to whether the motor runs are good or not.
This is the guy with the 511 rwhp etp 215's and street sweeper:
Hi jshelton2006,
Take a look at the thread I opened on my engine build up, all the specs of the camshaft are inside, plus videos, graphs, dyno sheets and data...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648228
I went only once to the drag strip and burned a Textralia Exo-Skel, since then with my new RPS Twin carbon I didn't had the opportunity to go back.
JFYI, I rev my engine on a daily bases to 7200/7400rpm with no valve float as show in some data and video in the above mentioned thread.
Don't hesitate to ask if you don't find an answer in my thread.
Christian
Take a look at the thread I opened on my engine build up, all the specs of the camshaft are inside, plus videos, graphs, dyno sheets and data...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648228
I went only once to the drag strip and burned a Textralia Exo-Skel, since then with my new RPS Twin carbon I didn't had the opportunity to go back.
JFYI, I rev my engine on a daily bases to 7200/7400rpm with no valve float as show in some data and video in the above mentioned thread.
Don't hesitate to ask if you don't find an answer in my thread.
Christian
But unfortunately I would need to see some proof via links. I would also need to see details on cars, raceweights, locations, ect. We all know a car in New Jersey will out perform a car in New Mexico or Denver.
Odds are there is no such documented comparison to look at.
I have some ideas of some bad performing ETP setups that have decent ET's, but when you look at the combo you think to yourself that it shoulda went quicker. I'm not going to bring up any bad setups in public. I would like to stay more positive showing what the products can do and not where they have failed. I'm sure both heads have failing combos that may or may not be the heads fault. We both know that I never said that they sucked. Thats far from saying that I just haven't seen any perform on par yet against the other heads with similar combos. My point is Trick Flow has results and ETP doesnt have many results out there period, whether good or bad to prove themselves. I'm sorry if you took offense that I didnt believe you simply because you stated they looked like art and worked. I'm a human, not a bird. I buy performance mods based on performance not how shiny they are. Now I admit, If I had my parrot making all of my modding decisions then I would own ETP 215's over the TFS, but I'd prolly also be rolling on dubs
On top of that I have a performance shop owner/sponsor who has installed and dynoed both heads on various customers cars tell me that he likes the ETP's better. You are biased based on your setup. I am biased based on my previous choice for a setup. But he could care less since he sells both heads and would make money either way.
Sorry if I choose to believe him.