Trick Flow 235cc vs. LS7 head
04-28-2008, 02:27 PM
#41
I'll stick up for any aftermarket company (AFR,ET, TFS, Dart, Profiler, ALL Pro etc.) that provides ACTUAL test info to enthusiasts where the recipe is clearly stated.
I'm not sure how this post could have been any more apples to apples. If anything it was biased toward the LS7. Same shortblock, bigger rocker ratio, larger ports, the biggest cubic inch to suck up the air, putting better valvesprings on the LS7's so they wouldn't go into float to early, etc. Surprise surprise, the 7's make more top end power than the 235's. Suprise surprise, cathedral ports make killer low end like Sperry intended.
Now for my rant:
Why is anybody trying to shoot holes in it other than entertainments sake? Had TFS wanted to bias the test, they would run a small cam that ran out of steam before the larger LS7's airflow could make a showing. This cam is an average choice for your average 440ci stick guy..remember the guys that aren't happy with "mere" 427's and they want to pump a big horsepower number. Certainly TFS doesn't need advice about cams any more than Tony Mamo or Craig from ET would. They talk to their customers ALL day long and KNOW what their average customer demands of a certain cylinder head model. Had it been a 215cc runner model in the test, their average customer would want something along the lines of a 230@.050 grind.
Why is it that someone can **** talk, but when it comes time to back up they're talk..they say "company X tested it". Buddy, if you ain't company X, what are YOU doin' posting on their behalf?
If you don't agree on the split, I don't see that it's helping the 235's in particular either. New Rule for the forum, unless you know valve opening and closing numbers independently of two cams and know which events affect what from personal experience with different heads, don't post your "opinion". I read these posts all the time and it kills me there are people naive enough to listen to guru so-and-so's kung-fu chop-suey double-secret engine combo #273X. Unfortunatly on any forum, there's a bunch of keyboard engine builders who've never seen an engine dyno in their life reguritating interweb info.
Note to the newbies: Ask this question before you take someones advice: have they ever sold any winning racing engines? How much time have they spent on the dyno sweating and burning their fingers? Actual engine DEVELOPERS don't hand any valuable information out to people who haven't earned it.
I'm not sure how this post could have been any more apples to apples. If anything it was biased toward the LS7. Same shortblock, bigger rocker ratio, larger ports, the biggest cubic inch to suck up the air, putting better valvesprings on the LS7's so they wouldn't go into float to early, etc. Surprise surprise, the 7's make more top end power than the 235's. Suprise surprise, cathedral ports make killer low end like Sperry intended.
Now for my rant:
Why is anybody trying to shoot holes in it other than entertainments sake? Had TFS wanted to bias the test, they would run a small cam that ran out of steam before the larger LS7's airflow could make a showing. This cam is an average choice for your average 440ci stick guy..remember the guys that aren't happy with "mere" 427's and they want to pump a big horsepower number. Certainly TFS doesn't need advice about cams any more than Tony Mamo or Craig from ET would. They talk to their customers ALL day long and KNOW what their average customer demands of a certain cylinder head model. Had it been a 215cc runner model in the test, their average customer would want something along the lines of a 230@.050 grind.
Why is it that someone can **** talk, but when it comes time to back up they're talk..they say "company X tested it". Buddy, if you ain't company X, what are YOU doin' posting on their behalf?
If you don't agree on the split, I don't see that it's helping the 235's in particular either. New Rule for the forum, unless you know valve opening and closing numbers independently of two cams and know which events affect what from personal experience with different heads, don't post your "opinion". I read these posts all the time and it kills me there are people naive enough to listen to guru so-and-so's kung-fu chop-suey double-secret engine combo #273X. Unfortunatly on any forum, there's a bunch of keyboard engine builders who've never seen an engine dyno in their life reguritating interweb info.
Note to the newbies: Ask this question before you take someones advice: have they ever sold any winning racing engines? How much time have they spent on the dyno sweating and burning their fingers? Actual engine DEVELOPERS don't hand any valuable information out to people who haven't earned it.
I never said to use
kung-fu chop-suey double-secret engine combo #273X
Nevermind, take it for what you will.
I did.
04-28-2008, 03:10 PM
#42
TECH Regular
Here's my beef. You've taken what could have been a constructive thread (the fact that TFS asked the community for ideas for further testing), then put a defamatory twist on it based on supposition. You could have phrased it like:
"I'd like TFS to retest a small cam like X, it would be interesting to see to see if it picked up the 7's down low and held up high, or would the 235's merely out torqued the fat port LS7's even more bringing the test to an early halt before the 7's could start to perform." Instead, you're pretty much calling out the TFS guys as Liars. Not nice to someone who spend an awful large amount of money to bring us a test.
Then there was the statement about "in a drag race" the LS7's would win. Again, supposition, not even a bit of math to back it up. Pro stock teams pick the rpm spread over top gear (where they spend the most amount of seconds in their 1/4 mile race) to make the most average horsepower. With an expected 130 trap speed of a 650 horse engine, then stack the gear ratio's of a t56 in a calculator, a 7000 rpm shift out of 3rd gear falls to 5400 in 4th and you'll go through the traps at 6500 in 4th. You could go to a 4.10 gear and shift out of third at 7500 and the average span moves 5800 to 7200. The Ls-7's may start coming in close in such a race, but in no way "beating" the 235's automatically. If a guy has an automatic, he's virtually assured to do better with the 235's with anything but a 5500rpm stall converter to crutch the heads.
Again, I wasn't aiming my comment squarely at you, but that's how some of the posts on this thread have come across.
04-28-2008, 03:25 PM
#43
Do you have PERSONAL knowledge of these cams with LS7 heads. Are you a professional engine builder? Not calling you out, it's a valid question. You've made some intelligent posts in the past, but your bio doesn't give your history. You may very well have some engine building history that you can use to elaborate on your point. That's all I'm saying, put some time into your answer or it can be taken wrong.
Here's my beef. You've taken what could have been a constructive thread (the fact that TFS asked the community for ideas for further testing), then put a defamatory twist on it based on supposition. You could have phrased it like:
"I'd like TFS to retest a small cam like X, it would be interesting to see to see if it picked up the 7's down low and held up high, or would the 235's merely out torqued the fat port LS7's even more bringing the test to an early halt before the 7's could start to perform." Instead, you're pretty much calling out the TFS guys as Liars. Not nice to someone who spend an awful large amount of money to bring us a test.
Then there was the statement about "in a drag race" the LS7's would win. Again, supposition, not even a bit of math to back it up. Pro stock teams pick the rpm spread over top gear (where they spend the most amount of seconds in their 1/4 mile race) to make the most average horsepower. With an expected 130 trap speed of a 650 horse engine, then stack the gear ratio's of a t56 in a calculator, a 7000 rpm shift out of 3rd gear falls to 5400 in 4th and you'll go through the traps at 6500 in 4th. You could go to a 4.10 gear and shift out of third at 7500 and the average span moves 5800 to 7200. The Ls-7's may start coming in close in such a race, but in no way "beating" the 235's automatically. If a guy has an automatic, he's virtually assured to do better with the 235's with anything but a 5500rpm stall converter to crutch the heads.
Again, I wasn't aiming my comment squarely at you, but that's how some of the posts on this thread have come across.
Here's my beef. You've taken what could have been a constructive thread (the fact that TFS asked the community for ideas for further testing), then put a defamatory twist on it based on supposition. You could have phrased it like:
"I'd like TFS to retest a small cam like X, it would be interesting to see to see if it picked up the 7's down low and held up high, or would the 235's merely out torqued the fat port LS7's even more bringing the test to an early halt before the 7's could start to perform." Instead, you're pretty much calling out the TFS guys as Liars. Not nice to someone who spend an awful large amount of money to bring us a test.
Then there was the statement about "in a drag race" the LS7's would win. Again, supposition, not even a bit of math to back it up. Pro stock teams pick the rpm spread over top gear (where they spend the most amount of seconds in their 1/4 mile race) to make the most average horsepower. With an expected 130 trap speed of a 650 horse engine, then stack the gear ratio's of a t56 in a calculator, a 7000 rpm shift out of 3rd gear falls to 5400 in 4th and you'll go through the traps at 6500 in 4th. You could go to a 4.10 gear and shift out of third at 7500 and the average span moves 5800 to 7200. The Ls-7's may start coming in close in such a race, but in no way "beating" the 235's automatically. If a guy has an automatic, he's virtually assured to do better with the 235's with anything but a 5500rpm stall converter to crutch the heads.
Again, I wasn't aiming my comment squarely at you, but that's how some of the posts on this thread have come across.
No I am not personally an engine builder. At the risk of some of the he said regurgiting of facts, I count a few of the best people with these engines as not only my freinds, but I have in fact hired them to build my engine. I have spent many, many hours on the phone with them talking theory and going over results. They are not run of the mill hacks. They have World Championships on their resume's. Notice I didn't say track championships. While I have never had the opportunity to put a wrench on these motors, I am fairly mechanically intelligent.
If you notice in my first post, I said that I applaud the effort. And I still do. I have never said anything bad about TFS heads anywhere on here. I still stand by my statement that I believe a true apples to apples test between these two style heads is almost impossible. For a very large portion of people, the tfs heads will get the nod. I apologize for my phrasing.
I am done.
04-28-2008, 03:55 PM
#44
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Internet Comments like you can't use a cam that big with LS7 style heads just kill me.Brian at LME has used 260-270 cams in LS7 builds for years.
How about a 3200 lb Camaro with a 408 with ETP LS7 heads and a stock LS-7 intake.Check out the following video and the MPH,this is NA and yes the car has a 260-270 cam that doesn't work with Ls-7 heads(LOL)
http://fastlsx.vidiac.com/video/7417...6a016bc787.htm
Ray T
How about a 3200 lb Camaro with a 408 with ETP LS7 heads and a stock LS-7 intake.Check out the following video and the MPH,this is NA and yes the car has a 260-270 cam that doesn't work with Ls-7 heads(LOL)
http://fastlsx.vidiac.com/video/7417...6a016bc787.htm
Ray T
04-28-2008, 04:17 PM
#45
TECH Regular
Brian,
No I am not personally an engine builder. At the risk of some of the he said regurgiting of facts, I count a few of the best people with these engines as not only my freinds, but I have in fact hired them to build my engine. I have spent many, many hours on the phone with them talking theory and going over results. They are not run of the mill hacks. They have World Championships on their resume's. Notice I didn't say track championships. While I have never had the opportunity to put a wrench on these motors, I am fairly mechanically intelligent.
If you notice in my first post, I said that I applaud the effort. And I still do. I have never said anything bad about TFS heads anywhere on here. I still stand by my statement that I believe a true apples to apples test between these two style heads is almost impossible. For a very large portion of people, the tfs heads will get the nod. I apologize for my phrasing.
I am done.
No I am not personally an engine builder. At the risk of some of the he said regurgiting of facts, I count a few of the best people with these engines as not only my freinds, but I have in fact hired them to build my engine. I have spent many, many hours on the phone with them talking theory and going over results. They are not run of the mill hacks. They have World Championships on their resume's. Notice I didn't say track championships. While I have never had the opportunity to put a wrench on these motors, I am fairly mechanically intelligent.
If you notice in my first post, I said that I applaud the effort. And I still do. I have never said anything bad about TFS heads anywhere on here. I still stand by my statement that I believe a true apples to apples test between these two style heads is almost impossible. For a very large portion of people, the tfs heads will get the nod. I apologize for my phrasing.
I am done.
That's cool. It's pretty easy to get heated up over nothing and again, my post was not aimed squarely at you. As a manufacturer doing our best to make good stuff, I appreciate the testing these companies bring to us. All too often, there's a lot of fluff and BS in advertising these days and it's nice to see companies that really try to shed light on things like this. -
04-28-2008, 08:01 PM
#46
Airflow Chart for GenX Street/Strip 235 Cylinder Heads
Lift Value Intake Flow CFM Exhaust Flow CFM
0.100" 65 55
0.200" 144 124
0.300" 229 196
0.400" 287 242
0.500" 323 260
0.600" 340 270
Tests conducted at 28" of water (pressure) with a 4.125" bore flowplate.
CNC-profiled chambers; exhaust with 17/8" pipe.
Lift Value Intake Flow CFM Exhaust Flow CFM
0.100" 65 55
0.200" 144 124
0.300" 229 196
0.400" 287 242
0.500" 323 260
0.600" 340 270
Tests conducted at 28" of water (pressure) with a 4.125" bore flowplate.
CNC-profiled chambers; exhaust with 17/8" pipe.
04-29-2008, 07:30 AM
#47
TECH Regular
The flows going to drop a bit, but not to worried about that....it's the 1 3/4 headers that would be a concern. What kind of cam and compression are you going to run?
04-29-2008, 10:31 AM
#48
I noticed that the test perameters were done with a 4.125" bore and 1 7/8" pipe. Will I be killing these heads with my 4.065" bore and 1 3/4" headers? Ron at Vengeance flat out recommended these heads for my motor and I think they are going to be awsome, I just don't want to leave any thing on the table. Thank's for posting up the flow numbers.
Thanks
TrickFlow Tech
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04-29-2008, 10:40 AM
#49
FormerVendor
I have used the TFS 235 head on 5 - 4.030 bore engines and they all ran great. You just need to use the larger head gasket of course to clear the bigger chamber. Most of these had the larger 1 7/8+ headers. One 408 made over 575 HP at the wheels and had 4.10 gears and some other things that probably knocked it down a bit so I know the can make over 600 on the right 408 even at only a 4.030 bore. I milled them a bit since we used them on an engine with slightly dished pistons but the heads are awesome.
04-29-2008, 11:04 AM
#50
I'm with Stang's Bane on what he was saying about the difficulty with doing a "apples to apples" comparison between two completely different heads. If someone were to come out with dyno numbers with a camshaft suited better for LS7 heads vs TFS 235's that would be problematic as well.
This goes to TFS, and TFS ONLY, if you guys really want to compare your heads all around against the LS7 heads, you NEED to run both sides of the fence, esp because they're such different heads. Once with a cam better suited for your heads (like you've already done) and one with valve events better suited for the LS7 heads, this way there CAN'T be any one claiming an unfair comparison. And who knows, you may find that your heads out pace the LS7's all around! Wouldn't that be something to test for =D
Best Regards.
This goes to TFS, and TFS ONLY, if you guys really want to compare your heads all around against the LS7 heads, you NEED to run both sides of the fence, esp because they're such different heads. Once with a cam better suited for your heads (like you've already done) and one with valve events better suited for the LS7 heads, this way there CAN'T be any one claiming an unfair comparison. And who knows, you may find that your heads out pace the LS7's all around! Wouldn't that be something to test for =D
Best Regards.
04-29-2008, 02:12 PM
#51
I am running a 416 with a XER 244/248 .612/.615 114+4. I degreed it in on a 109.7 ICL. I am going to run 12.01:1 SCR and 8.63:1 DCR, 67cc, Cometic 4.085" bore, .045" thickness. I have Ron's ported 90/90, YT's, UD. I am going to be running the LG Pro's with Borla Stingers that were off of Tony Mamo's car. They have been modified some, basicly because I am out of money. I also wanted to get Pat G to spec me up another cam, but again, out of money. So I am pretty much stuck with what I have. I would really like to see 550/525rw. That is the goal in the end. This motor will also be going in a daily driven 02 Z06. I will be happy if I see 525/500rw in it current configuration.
Brett
Brett
04-29-2008, 10:39 PM
#52
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I still love my ET 245`s! But you guys are making one sweet *** set of heads. And your right, the fast dies really early on my 408 with the heads I have!!!
04-30-2008, 04:22 PM
#54
Apples and oranges, whatever you call it, like I said before the two engines compared with the parts they had and dyno figures they provided, I was more impressed with the trickflow setup, which head is better, I don't care.
Point I made was the trickflow motor with it's much better torque curve would spank the LS7 combo in this comparison in a drag race.
Point I made was the trickflow motor with it's much better torque curve would spank the LS7 combo in this comparison in a drag race.
Nothing about wheels in there 
. I just wonder how fast people want to spin a motor this size. I sift at 6500 with no power drop.
05-01-2008, 02:41 PM
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it would be interesting to see what a 440 ls7 top end would do, in terms of average power (say 7000 and below), cammed 'correctly' on a back to back dyno (same short block), same day, etc.