Colonel

Wow, this thread got a little cRaZy!

Anyway, to answer a few questions...

"Didn't MTI start on that motor over a year ago?"

No. I raced the car last in Sept. I took the car out there a couple of weeks after that but they were not able to get to it right away. I'd guess they started on it about the 1st or 2nd week of October.

"Colonel- aren't you getting antsy after a year? I woulb be with that kind of money hanging out there with a semi tuned motor to show for it..."

Antsy? Nah. Excited? YES!

The engine isn't semi tuned. It's tuned well but we're trying out some different parts to let it breath to it's full potential. We first dynoed with an 80mm TB. Then with a 105mm TB we dynoed again (it picked up 35 RWHP from this alone.) Now we're installing the Kooks headers and we'll dyno again. According to what that does, we may look into having some larger headers built. Building something like this isn't just slapping together a bunch of parts and hitting the track. This car still has a ways to go before I'll consider it good enough to run NA 8s. One step at a time.

There are things about this story that you don't understand that have made the project take so long. Things that were COMPLETELY out of MTI's hands. I'm not disgruntled with MTI in the slightest. I feel that because I went with MTI, I'm getting the best that money can buy...and it's going to take that to reach my goals. Sure, I could have gone cheaper but then I'd lessen my chances of reaching 8s on motor...and that's not an acceptable risk to me.

Patience is indeed a virtue.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Tony, Jon, and I will find that quite funny . I suspect we are poorer than you think. FAR poorer. Steve may have his own trucking company, but the rest of us are just working schmo's with a vehicular drug habit. (I personally, work at a bank, and havent robbed it yet.)

chris

poolfanatic

iTrader: (32)

I'm in the same boat as far as money goes. As a matter of fact, I'm a charter member of the "Platelets for Parts" program that the Houston Blood Bank has.

One pint = $90.00 credit from any Houston LS1 Vendor - this is working out very well, except for the headaches, double vision and numbness in my extremeties.

.....

.....

Disclaimer: There is no such program. This is a joke, I will not be responsible for anyone selling organs or bodily fluids to make their LS1 faster.

bodhi

I have said this many times-
If I was rich then I would take my cars to MTI, tell them what I expected and picked it up. However, due to my measly income, I am forced to look elsewhere when modding my car. My point is- there are GOOD alternatives to MTI. I just get sick of hearing "MTI is the ONLY way to go for power"
I'll leave it at that.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

$90.00 !!! Holy Chit! Dude... I'll be giving blood every 2 days. Do they let you do that?

I dont have Yella Terras yet, that fancy water pump looks REALLY cool, and I cant even afford to replace the stereo head unit stolen out of my mustang. I'd RATHER have blurry vision and ringing ears than look at my plain looking motor and listen to no music in the mustang!

Colonel

"My point is- there are GOOD alternatives to MTI. I just get sick of hearing "MTI is the ONLY way to go for power"

I agree, there are many good LS1 shops in the US. Just look down the row of sponsors to the right. No doubt about it, they're all good. You'll never hear me say that MTI is the only way to go for power...in fact, I don't recall anyone saying that.

-Ignorant MTI customer

JF WS6

The only thing that made me say *possibly* better (I never said they WERE better) was in reference to flow #'s... The flow #'s I received with my AS heads were as good in the low/med lift areas and slightly better in the upper lift areas. My car is also a 440+RWHP car through a 12 bolt w/ 4:30's and full exhaust with a stock bottom end. All the cars with the exception of Raughhammer that you listed are running large cube 422+ cu. inch engines as well and have spent large amounts of money to do so. I'm sure if there were more large cubed solid roller/hydraulic engines out there with stage III LS6 heads from some of the other vendors you would see similar performance from some of them (notice I didn't say ALL.)

I'm not here to knock MTI at all, in fact I've bought several things from them and have been pleased and never have encountered a problem but they are expensive in comparison to some other places. You don't ALWAYS get more just because you paid more, especially when there is a price markup based on a name. Are Ralph Lauren blue jeans really better than Levi's? Whether you want to believe it or not, there are a few shops that are capable of very high quality work and similar results for a more reasonable price. So, I guess I'm with Bodhi on this one..... flame away......

PaiN

Its been a while, so people easily forget.

I had a MTI heads/cam motor. little ole stage II heads, and early B1 camshaft...not the newer aggressive ramp camshafts. Ran 11.2's in average DA, at 3400 # race weight, and fully heatsoaked from a 65 mile drive to the track. In the days before ls1edit too.

That motor has lived in my dads C5 over a year now, has a C2 camshaft, dynoes over 430 rwhp N/A, and has had countless bottles of n20 sprayed through it, and is still running strong. Pretty freaking impressive dependability(spelling?)

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Here's a weird concept...

If I'm less worried about my car breaking something expensive and leaving me without a fun car for 9 months, Im more likely to spend more and more time at the dragstrip, making me a better driver and helping me to discover what works and what doesnt. I'll drive harder at the road course and work more on my handling, turn-in and breaking. That practice and time in is worth MUCH more than 10 cfm at .300.

*And* as a bonus, you are having more fun with your car.

Of course, you may be not worried at all about breaking things at the strip... Alot of guys think like that...for awhile

Again... Not saying any sponsor DOESNT make great stuff that will give you that same level of comfort. Different sponsors give that feeling to different folks. For me, its MTI, for other, ARE. For others, LG. For roll-bars, cages, and custom exhaust work, I'd only do LG, personally.

This is a legit discussion, so flames are unnecessary and unwarranted on either side.

bodhi

Nice plug for you sponsors
I never accused you of being ignorant (almighty Colonel ), just appears to me that some have more money than sense.

bodhi

I have been drag racing and modding cars to one degree or another for 12 years. As with quite a few people, the LS1 and it's traits are new. The old rules do not apply to this motor and we are having fun "figuring" it out. I have blown more than my fair share of SB1 small blocks- from thrown rods, spun bearings to ripping a 2.055" intake valve off of the stem @8k and sending sailing through the motor.
I was once told by a buddy that raced sprint cars (he supplied me with all kinds of trick leftover parts) after I had blown my motor up again- He said "blowing it up is half the fun- you just build it better next time".

I certainly do not want to blow this expensive bastard up, but it is a hell of alota fun to play with. And yes, you are correct, it is only a matter of time- for any of us.
As I said before, if I could afford MTI to do all of my work, I would not hesitate. However, I know that there is an alternative that is a better value.
Now how is that a flame? If I may point fingers for a moment- I believe the almighty Tony started with the flames.

J-Rod

Here is a post which I made a long time ago. My buddy took his CNC heads over to MTI to have them looked at. They compared the CNC heads to an MTI head. I don't know exactly which one.

Now,as for cylinder heads. Differnet folks do differnet things. The thing to pay attention to is not just max lift, but mid lift flows, port volume, velocity. Also, what pressure were the heads flowed at 25" or 28", what bench, what orifice size. All of that comes into play. There is only so much you can do with a port. Most heads flow about the same @ .550-.600. 314@.550 on an ls6 for example. Unless you do a head for a big bore motor and open up the runners a bit nothing changes much. The low and mid-lift stuff is often influnenced by valve angles, valve selection, backcutting, etc... I think one area where GTP shines is that they have spent a ton of time doing R&D on valve angles where many of the other shops go with the basic 3 angle. There is airflow and power to be found there. Again, MTI has always been a bit more conservative in what they do, and thats one of the reasons they can offer the warranty they do. You can throw some crazy Super Stock Valve job on a set of heads with a 55 degree mains seat angle and beat the seats outt of a head in no time. But it will flow like mad while it is together. Does MTI make a good head? Yes.

As for who does the best heads, and are they worth the money? I guess thats subjective. From what I have seen I think GTP has the absolute best heads out there. I think many of the others are close, but I think GTP is the best. On the cheap side of the hoseI am going to throw out a bit of a shocker. I think LPE has one of the better CNC heads. Their low and mid lift numbers are fantastic. Also, the cost of their CNC heads is really not that bad $1595. I am not talking about the GM CNC head. I am talking about sending your heads to LPE for their stage I CNC job. On the LS6 they seem to make some really good numbers.

As for choosing MTI, they have a great rep. They have fantastic customer service. They stand behind their product. Their heads flow well. So, you have to ask yourself do I want hand ported heads, or CNC. Also, is this how I want to spend my money?

Here is the thread when MTI flowed the GMPP CNC heads for us.


http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showt...threadid=25825

GMPP LS6 CNC heads flowed at MTI - Interesting Info
My buddy John bought a set of CNC LS6 heads from SDPC. Before he bolted them on he decided to take them to MTI to have them flowed. MTI was interested since I do not think they had seen a set up to this point to compare to their heads.

A valve was popped loose and the intake and exhaust ports were flowed. Several interesting fact came to light during this test.

First, if there was ever and question that these heads were done for GM by LPE, there isn't now. They have a tag from Lingenfelter, and they have a serial number LPExxxx stamped into the head. So, I would say they are definitely LPE stuff.

The next interesting thing is that the head is welded up. What I mean by that is that they go high into the top of the runner and actually break through the top of the port. They build it up with a bit of weld metal to close the hole. I suspect this is done before they are ported. There are several people out there who do this. MTI however is not one of them. According to their head porter instead of going up in the port, he goes into the floor. I found this unusual as most people try to stay off the floor of a port and work to raise the runner. But, this is what they do, and it seems to work for them.

I know there has been concern over the heads being milled .055 don't let this worry you if you are considering them. The chambers are reshaped during the CNC process and metal around the valve has been removed. By milling the head you get to about a 60cc combustion chamber. According to MTI that is exactly what they shoot for on their heads 60-61cc.

In looking at the intake flow numbers they appear to correlate with some early numbers posted by SDPC. The post with pictures of the heads. Well, let me say, they matched on the intake dead on. On the exhaust they were about 7CFM lower on Jason's bench vs the SDPC numbers.

They were nice enough to bring up the graph of the heads and overlay some of their own heads for comparison. The first graph they brough up was the graph for the heads on Jayson's own car. These are the "best" heads they know how to do. I think peak flow numbers were around +340 cfm. They absolutely destroyed the CNC heads when comparing the two. Better across the board by a wide margin. I think Jayson's heads are Stage III Ls6 heads on his 422 but I am not 100% certain.

John asked to see a graph of the LS6CNC vs a "typical" MTI head. So, they scrolled down and pulled up some other head. I do not know whose heads these were. I believe these were some Stage II Ls1 heads, but I don't know for sure. In looking at the graphs layed over one another the thing that was clear that the CNC heads outflowed the MTI heads until about .500 at that point the graphs converged together. at .550 the MTI heads were pulling away, and at .600 the CNC heads went turbulent and dropped like a stone. As a side note, the MTI heads never went turbulent and would continue to flow until .700. The LS6 CNC head flowed until .590. Once you opened the port to .600 it got noisy and really turbulent (it was obvious when you were listening). So these heads should not be used with more than .590 lift on the intake period. I think the MTI heads were making 318 @ either .500 or .550 I can't remember which, and I only have the numbers for the LS6 in front of me.

Here are the numbers off Jayson's bench.

Intake
.100 - 67
.200 - 142
.300 - 210
.400 - 254
.500 - 290
.550 - 304
.600 - 286

Exhaust
.100 - 50
.200 - 104
.300 - 150
.400 - 185
.500 - 203
.550 - 210
.600 - 212

One of the other things that was noted is that the CNC heads exhaust flowed about 70% more or less across the board. MTI heads flowed MUCH better on the exhaust side. They were consistently ahead by about 50 CFM in the higher lifts if memory serves me correctly.

In discussing this with John we began to come up with several points that we began to discuss. If you look at the ASA and the World Cup cams you will notice they are MUCH bigger on the exhaust side. If you look at the "tuner" cams they are either even, and some tuner cams are working on "reverse split". I don't know if this is due to the fact that the percentages on the exhaust are much closer than on the CNC heads. Also, there was some question as to whether the exhaust ports were too efficent, and the cams were being used to make up for insuficient intake flow vs exhaust flow.

Overall I think it was an interesting test. Jayson and his head porting folks seemed to feel that for the price these heads were certainly a pretty good bargain. One of the other things the porter noted that he felt that smoothing out the CNC imperfections left by the tooling could be worth 6-8 CFM on the intake alone.

Anyhow, props to Jayson and the crew @ MTI for their help...

If you wish to see the flow numbers MTI has them saved under the filename Lingenfelter. So, no those aren't heads hand ported by Lingenfelter, they are just plain old CNC heads.

bodhi

Good to know- thanks.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Thats all you had to say in the first place, but you decided to say this:


Now, who exactly starting writing all the uneccessary bullshit against MTI? YOU. It was uncalled for.

BTW, I started using MTI parts back in 1998, and I was making about 30% of what I do now, and at the time of my first heads/cam purchase I was unemployed for two months with a baby on the way. I think thats about as broke as you can get, living paycheck to paycheck and being $25K in the hole due to college. Of course, my priorities in favor of cars has always been one of those stupid things I do . Things are different today of course, but I still trust MTI even though I could probably get FREE stuff from other sponsors on this site. You make it sound like the customers of MTI don't choose them on their own, but thats where you are wrong.

Tony

bodhi

All of my statements were pointed at MTI, not you. Yet you chose personal shots at me. Did I say something like-
" Is your screen name Nine Ball because it's representative of the yellow stripe on your back?"
No- I was stating my opinion of MTI's prices. I never onced question their quality, only value. There was never a personal attack.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

It was a personal attack when you insulted the customers of MTI. You didn't say MTI was ignorant or that MTI was in a cult, you said the customers were. I am an MTI customer. Do you know how to READ what you actually type?

bodhi

I understand that it is sacreligeous to do anything but throw yourself at MTI's feet here on ls1tech.com, however, there are a few of us that are not blinded by there omnipresent flame. Although it is against your religeon (to me the MTI phenomenon is similar to Mormonism- a cult following that has it's perks, but in the end sucks you dry).....

This was in refence to the select few on this site that would help MTI peddle rubber vomit for $100 bucks if MTI started carrying it. I'm certain it would be of the highest quality vomit, but would it be a good value? No.
I don't see how the above statement could be construed as flame. I was stating an opinion of the "hardcore" types that have the funds to support MTI.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Well, if you don't think your statements could possibly offend anyone, you definitely do not have any of the common sense that you claim to have. How about all the Mormons that read this reply of yours? How about the MTI customers you claim got "raped" or were "ignorant" for their choice. Your opinion and point were very simple, but you chose to spew all the additional crap that wasn't required. If you wanted to argue price on MTI products, I would have gladly agreed with you that MTI is not the cheapest place. All of the other derragatory remarks and religion remarks should have been left out.

This thread is over. Maybe next time around you can polish your replys a little to not be so potentially offensive to a broad group of members.

Tony