Ok guys, right now i have the mods in my sig. However, the headers and true duals are sitting in the garage, waiting for this weekend to be installed. I've been modding this car pretty fast and i'm already ready for my next. I want to get a cam. I will be doing it the right way, not just throwing the cam in. I will be getting lifters, valve springs, upgraded oil pump, etc. I will also be getting a tune once the install is complete. This thread will hopefully help me decide on if i can go ahead and get the cam, or if i have to wait until a stall is in first. By the way, i did search, but no one seems to have my setup (gears) and the responses are always "get a stall, it will drop your 1/4 mile time dramatically" which if you continue to read, does not matter to me whatsoever.

My question is, do i truly NEED a stall? My car is a A4 and i already have very high gears in it (4.10s) which i'm sure will help out with driveability. My car WILL NOT see the track. If i ever go to the track, it will be one time when i'm done with the car, just to see what i trap out of curiousity.

To add more info to this, i will be getting a MS4 cam. I debated between three (MS3, MS4 and a T-Rex). I feel as though the T-Rex is just a little too large and that the MS3 and MS4 are so close in driveability, that i might as well go with the slightly larger cam. I will also be adding a TNT wet kit sometime soon, probably starting with a 100 and working my way up to 150. I do race my car but it is always from a roll. A stall would only slow me down from a roll, hince the reason why i do not want to get a stall. If i were a stoplight or track racer, then i'd be all over a 4000 or higher stall. I also know that the car will try and push through the brakes at stoplights, but i figure if it really pushes that hard, i can always just put the car in neutral at a stoplight.

If i am misinformed that the car with a stall would be slower from a roll, please inform me. Any insight to this would be appreciated.

 

Honestly a stall be it a MILD one will do wonders even on a stock car. LS1's seem to like at minimum 3,000.

On my LT1 I was running a 2,000 and later a 2,800 and was cutting low 1.7's on a nitto and 3.23 rear gears. So you dont need a super loose converter.

But to be really honest, you are a perfect canidate for a t-56 conversion. IF all you race are roll races then there isnt an arguement, get a 6 speed in there.

Your rear gear is going to help but you should still get some sort of stall.

 

So if I get a stall right 2800 lets say I run 13.00 what will i run after the stall?

 

Your going to want a stall, it will want to surge at stop lights and thats no fun. A small to medium stall will work well with what your looking for

 

Ok, do you like to go fast?? Of course look at all those mods. While a nice stall will lower your ET, with the right mods it will also add to the go fast goodies under the hood. With a stock stall and a cam that big it will take FOREVER to reach the powerband and when she does whats going to happen, it'll just shift and your going to start all over. With a nice stall you'll mash the gas, the RPM's will hold in the "OMG" sweet spot and your car will fly forward. As long as your don't mind the drop in city driving MPG, stall is one of the best all around mods. Ok i'm done...

BTW- That "It will be slower from a roll" is BS.

 

That cam is way to big for you unless you have a minimum of a 3600 and preferably 4k stall. That cam is a terrible choice!
I had that same cam, I switched to 228r and picked up over 100rwhp at 3k and only lost 10 peak. That cam is a high rpm cam, Unless you plan on your motor staying in the 4k up range your gonna hate that cam.You also are going to have to do heads if you want it to perform.
Without an extremely loose converter your car will be slower on the street than stock.

I dont understand? you say youll never take it to the track then why buy a race cam?You really need to research before you spend the money. Do it once and your wallet will like you a whole lot more.
Call john at TSP, I feel certain he will help you get the right cam for your combo.

Remember bigger is not always better. Theres a lot to be said power under the curve.
I have dyno sheets to prove it.

Not trying to be an ***, I'm just trying to help. I've been where you are.

Doug

 

Thanx Doug.

 

I understand it is an extremely large cam and some say it is bad on the street. Trust me, i have done plenty of research. What you need to think of, though, is when you are at WOT you stay in your powerband. Once you are in your powerband, you stay in it. For example, with my 4.10 gears, if i floor it at 25mph i am in the perfect powerband for first gear. Once i shift into 2nd, it stays in the powerband. I never see anything under 4000 rpm's while at WOT so having all the power up top would be fine. I don't need gobs of under the curve power because i either drive the car like a grandma or floor it.

The cam choice is not the concern here. I don't need the ability to launch so why get a stall? I would make myself in my powerband before i ever floored it or raced. Like i stated earlier, if i were to race without a stall, i would simply start at a 25mph roll. From the time i floor it until its over i would always be in my powerband. The point is, even if i had a stall on this car, i would never launch it. I wouldnt have an oppurtunity to on the street and i wouldnt want to destroy my rear end anyways. So why get a stall if i will never launch the car and i would start every WOT run in my powerband beforehand?

Thus, the only reason i would think about getting a stall would be to make the car more driveable. I would never use the stall to launch which is what it is intended for. If i can get away with not having a stall i would like to. With the high gearing that i already have, and my willingness to throw it in neutral at a light, would driving a large cam be possible without a stall?

 

Sounds like you made up your mind already. Simple fact your car will be alot faster in just about every aspect with a nice converter in it. Your alot better off with a stalled converter in there end of story. If you'd like to convince yourself otherwise thats fine but your kidding yourself. If your main question is could you do without one i'd say yes you could but your leaving a heapload on the table in both performance and drivability.

 

I think you are uneducated on the pourpose of a higher stall converter. The specs of the cam MUST be taken into account when selecting a stall convertor. You can't run a can that big without a stall. PERIOD. It won't even idle in gear. To make it drivable you will need a 3200-3600RPM stall at a minimum. This has nothing to do with being able to launch quickly, it's necessary just to be able to drive it.

Also...You seem to be a member of the bigger is better club. You need to listen to the guy who told you the cam is too big for what you want to do. He used to run that can and downsized and is now happier. Just because you think it will be a good cam for racing, dosn't mean it will be enjoyable to drive the rest of the time. If you want a cam like that, you will have to have heads, injectors, intake, etc.

By the way. My baby cam car has beaten many big cam cars because by the time they come to live, the race is over.

Re'

 

Stall is not only for launch. and mph has nothing to do with anything. You will not be in the power till about 4k with that cam. You havnt done enough research if you still think with that big of a cam you dont need a stall. for you to make that cam work w/o a stall your gonna have to do a lot of shifting manually to get the rpms up.

IMO a stall is one of the first mods that should be done on an a4 period. I picked up .7 in the 1/8 w/ no changes other than a stall on a lid catback car.

You ask a ? and then dont take the advise. This thread is pointless!

Your right you dont need a stall and that ms4 isnt big enough, Thats aparently what you want to hear.

Can you make it work? yes but why.
can you make more power w a different cam and stall? absolutely and with a lot less strain on your motor.
And as for your rear end, If you still have the 7.5 it IS going to break regardless if you stall or not.

You spend more time between 4k & 6.5k than you do above 6.5k whether your on the track or street.

 

Obviously you have not. A looser converter is NOT an option for a cam of that size. You'll have all sorts of drivability problems with the stock converter and the car may actually even be slower overall after the cam. It will feel like a turbo 4 cylinder with a turbo too big for the combo that never spools. The right converter in that car will make it very strong from a roll - much MUCH stronger than the stocker could ever hope to be.

But if you still think that a stock converter will work better, let me recommend that you keep the stock valvesprings and pushrods too. No need to tune it either.

 

OUCH!!!...............But accurate. Yeah, hang in there. They should build you an MS5 soon.lol

 

I'm no expert by any means but, ill give you my 2cents ne-way. I am like you and have just the basic bolt mods. My next step was to do a H/C swap . So I did some research and asked around. After talking with some VERRRRRRRY knowledgeable people I held up on the H/C swap. InsteadI just had a 3200 EDGE lock up converter put in mine along with high energy clutches, shift kit (whick I highly recoment when you install a conver, without it the shifts get loose) etc... I am EXTREMELY happy I decided to do so. In my completly stock motor I can feel much more power! and I'm not just talking from a take off. Flash torque isn't talked about much but for an application like yours it may be the hidden key to success. From a 30mph roll I can go WOT and my only problem now is trying to keep the car from going sideways, and I have new 10.5in tires on the back. Now I'm piecing together the C/H swap withought any wories.

 

To hear an expert call up EDGE racing converters and ask for andrea hes a great guy awsom customer service, and he will tell you all you want to know about a converter and which one would be right for you with your cam.

 

 

i was going through the same thing that you are right now. i am not sure if a car will be faster from a roll with the stock stall or an aftermarket one. most will say an aftermarket stall will still be faster from a roll because of the shift extension. some disagree. i still don't know what to believe. i have my tranny out now waiting for a yank 3800 to go in my car. i will see how i like it i guess. you will probably have a ton of drivability issues with the ms4 and the stock stall. plus, you will have to raise the idle quite a bit just so it doesn't die. it will be pushing through the brakes hard at stop signs. there is no way i would run a stock stall with that cam. the shift extension would be horrible and this doesn't matter if you are roll racing or if you launch from a stop. if you just want a mean idle you can find that easily and the cam can still fit you well.

 

a 224 can sound pretty mean idling at 600rpm

 

But the throttle response might suffer...

 

Not only will will driveability completely suck with that size of cam and stock stall (as others have already mentioned) but you are missing out on another big benefit of a stall....... shift extension. Instead of having a powerband of 4000-6500+ rpms you can have a powerband of 5000-6500+ and with an MS4 I am sure you will be making a lot more avg hp under that curve than you would with a stock stall.