Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Are you that new to the LS1 world??? MTI was building heads and cam LS1s before ANYONE else back in 98 and 99. The first 11 second NA LS1 F-body, MTI... The first solid roller LS1, MTI... The first LS1 in the 9s, MTI, etc etc etc.

The C series is not necessarily a "street" cam for most customers. About 85% of folks with street cars have to pass emmissions. This isnt some horrible untruth they told you. You might think you wanted more cam... fine. When you call them on the phone and talk about what cam you want, ANY shop has to make a generalization or two. Do you think it is preferable that you call LG for instance and ask for a street cam and they tell you a G5X2?

LG does some things rather well. C5 headers, race cams, roll cages, y-pipes, etc. LG makes its most money building (or did) race cars. They have a race slant on things. Some things make sense to buy at LG like I mentioned..... but for me, motors arent one of them, and this thread is about motors. I find that LG and MTI are complimentary in the vendor world, because they are good at different things.

Im sorry...you must know of someone that DOES give a warrantee to sprayed or blown motors. Do you think Colonel regrets using MTI? I dont. Above you compare apples to oranges. Each motor or upgrade is priced in to each package. You cant just shoot off prices like that and make any sense. For engine parts, MTI is priced similarly to anyone else. Not the 30-60% you've exagurated above.

Dude! Are you really suggesting that MTI *chooses* its customers? That they, as a business should NOT advertise when and where it makes business sense? Ive called MTI no less than 100 times about my engine... pulling them to the near end of their customer service, but its still perfect. I sent them a set of heads to port and didnt pay for them for 12 months! I break LS1 stuff like its going out of fu%^ing STYLE and they built a motor for ME. In this last paragraph, you sound like you are staring out the window looking for black helicopters full of Jaysons to come and steal your brain.

If you are going to jump into every thread that involves MTI and bark off this stuff, the whole board is going to start reading right past your posts.

Did Jayson look at you funny? Did Rick accidently hang up on you? Did Chris mispronounce your name? There has to be someone that dropped a hair in your soup... Theres not other rational explanation for these irrational rants of yours.

Noone has spinning spiral eyes and satanic smiles as they talk about MTI "feeling good... TRY it." We are all just VERY happy customers. All these other vendors should have the same kind of people on the board too, right?

bodhi

I sent 9 Ball an email concerning this. The overall bias of this site is my problem.
As I have stated repeatedly, my problem is not with MTI craftsmanship or overall quality. I do not have a personal vendetta against Jayson.
I thoroughly enjoy this site and the highly technical information available from all of you. However, I do not care for the attitude and bias towards MTI on this site. Anytime has a question or need for their car, MTI is the answer for many of you. If someone suggests anything to the contrary, they are discredited and/ or harrased. I have taken a lot of flack for standing up and saying that MTI is not the best VALUE out there. Granted I am not perfect, and I have made some shitty comments here and there, but I feel that it was provoked. Either my statement was the "gay" statement of the day or I was "talking out my butt, bro" etc...
If you do not recommend MTI as the answer on this site- you are badgered by the die hards.
As with me, it seems that every MTI supporter on this site is going out of their way to discredit me.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

But just consider our position...
There are some of us for whom MTI has been a saving grace. For some of us, MTI has taken a huge nightmare and turned it around, all the while not taking us for our shirts. For that, some of us are incredibly greatful. So when people ask for opinions, we share them because we want others to understand how helpful this vendor has been. I dont receive a discount, a favor, or anythign from MTI for what I write on these boards. I merely feel like I am sharing how much easier my car-life became after I started letting Jayson do his thing with my car. Easier, and *cheaper*. Your posts always seem to purposefully initiate debate on the merits of MTI. Some of us are going to continually respond with our side of the debate. I dont condone anyone taking it to a personal level, and I think that is what people do when they dont have more to add to the debate. But if people have had the same experience I have, they are bound to be passionate about it. I am sorry you see a unreasonable bias in any direction on this board. I dont. But perhaps you spend more time thinking about MTI than you should It might fade into the background if you stop jumping in with posts like the one a few above. That's bait for anyone who likes MTI alot.

chris

poolfanatic

iTrader: (32)

Bodhi,

I recognize and respect every person's right to his/her opinion but I think that the reason you perceive some type of "bias" is because nearly every thread that you're involved in has some type of negative stance that comes directly from you relative to MTI.

When that happens, you're going to see the flip side of the coin in return as those of us who use MTI consistently and are pleased with all aspects of the shop (quality, price, customer service, etc) are going to voice our opinions as well.

I don't believe that there is or should be any type of personal animosity on a site of this type as we all come here to share a common passion and hobby. Perhaps you'd see more of this spirit and derive more enjoyment from the site, if you'd participate in a more constructive fashion instead of the consistent negativitiy that comes from your posts, specifically as they relate to a single tuner that many of use greatly enjoy working with and have a great deal of respect for.

Just my .02

David

J-Rod

Ok, my $.02 personally, I doubt I will use any of the tuner shops. MTI, or anyone else. Reason being is that I have a local shop that I use. I work on my own stuff there. We can re-sleeve blocks, as we re-sleeve tons of outboards and other 2 cycles, along with lots of 4 cycle applications. The only thing is it is a small shop, and it takes a while to get things done. I have a feeling that I understand why sleeves slip in blocks, and I think the way we do it would prevent sleeves slipping in about 100% of the cases. But, I am never going to post-***** for them, as they have enough work in the shop at any one time to last them for 6-9 months, and they really don't care about doing any hi-performance work.

I said all that, to say this. I am not an MTI cheerleader. I've never bought anyhting from them but dyno time. But, many folks out there want a shop with a good name the has a good rep, and is known to back up a product. That is worth something. Unless your best buddy owns a machine shop (like me) how do you know that what you are getting isn't junk? Do you put down your money and gamble that the local shop is on top of things, or do you go with a proven leader in the marketplace.

As for shops being on the conservative side. MTI was always a trendsetter. In the recent past they seemed to have become a bit more conservative than many of the shops. Why not, they have good proven packages that make good power, and are safe. That goes a long way. When you are on the edge, things tend to break. MTI led the field in R&D for a long time.

This is the same model LPE has used with great success. LPE is the most conservative of the tuners out there. But when was the last time your heard of anything from LPE breaking. And yes, they have a huge markup.

It all a matter of what you want out of the car, and your tuner.

bodhi

I would simply like to see a thread in which a person inquires about a motor, heads, cam or combo and not read- MTI stg blahblahblah as every reply.
I understand where you guys are coming from, but come on- there are a ton of other vendors out there that do exceptional work. This is why I tend to jump in and offer my .02.
If we were to keep going at this rate- the website would be changed to MTItech.com before too long. What fun would tht be?
I want to hear about the "little guy" and what he has done. I want to see you guys recommend JPR, Futral or MMT for a members needs- "hey you have this car and want to do this, well Allen just built a car that did just that..." something along those lines. Not the homogenous answer of "ok- you want mid 10's? OK, call Jayson, give him $25k and wait 8 weeks". This happens way more than it should on an "open" forum.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Michael, when did you get involved with LS1s? To say that MTI has never done anything with R&D and setting trends is way off mark.

-Invented the air lid, our most popular mod to date.
-First shop to install a 112 LSA cam. That was the T1 cam. Everyone on the net said it wouldn't work and wouldn't be drivable.
-First shop to pull 400 rwhp NA with stock cubes
-First 6-speed in the 11s 346ci NA
-First 346ci in the 10s NA
-First "all-bore" LS1 ever built (my 382ci)
-First hydraulic cammed LS1 in the 9s NA
-First shop to pull 500 rwhp LS1 NA
-First shop to pull 550 rwhp LS1 NA
-First shop to pull 600 rwhp C5-R NA

I can't even list all of the track records that have been set or broken by MTI cars in the past 5 years. Too many to mention.

Other shops have customers also, so why aren't those customers answering posts saying "hey, I use shop X and they are awesome". MTI isn't forcing its customers to reply to those threads.

Tony

bodhi

OK, so what have they done lately? Sounds to me like they are getting old and fat. Making profit off of past glory- Sitting back resting on their laurels if you will. Sure they have the Colonel's motor which has been a work in progress since Sept of last year... What else?
There is all kinds of new **** on the horizon and others are embracing it and running with the technology. For example- coatings, thermal and friction. Many are doing all kinds of "new" things with coatings and designing into their motors.
I'd put money on it that MTI will sit back, wait, see how well they perform, and start using them once proven.
IMHO- a great performance shop is one that is on the cutting edge- always trying new ****. Most are out there doing this and MTI may have once upon a time, but what are they doing now? The same exact thing they did a year ago. How far has the LS1 community come in a year? How far has MTI?

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Well, thats the problem... Ive never used JPR, Futral, MMT, and so on. Ive used LG alot, adn for cages and y-pipes I recommend them as heartily as I recommend MTI for engine stuff. The only vendor that has saved my *** is MTI, and I like to respond to threads. So what else should I write and speak from experience? I really try and avoid talking out of my *** about anything.

chris

bodhi

are you suggestion that that is what I do? talk out of my ***?

MelloYellow

Reliable & Proven vs. Bleeding Edge & Unstreetable.

LPE also comes to mind.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Another thing to consider Michael, how many of those other shops you mentioned actually do their engine work in-house? MTI does all of their machine work, porting, and assembly in-house. When you categorize the majority of LS1 vendors in this aspect, there are actually very few that do this. The majority subcontract it out or drop-ship it from other suppliers. You are right about MTI taking a more conservative approach to their builds, but that isn't to say that their conservative engine builds aren't making the excellent numbers. You make it sound like MTI engines don't make any power or are substandard performance-wise. No, I feel their "normal" setups are on par with the best of the available "normal" combos out there. Every shop has a few dyno queens also, as does MTI. But, you won't find MTI here bragging about those dyno queen numbers, or touting their dyno queen numbers as "average". Jayson has always been against spotlighting the "freaks" as his norm, he is more concerned with being able to give customers an estimate of a typical performance range, not promise some freak hp figure.

Personally, I prefer streetable combinations. A 224/224 cam IS still a big street cam in my opinion. Not everyone wants the biggest, baddest, etc.. setup for their daily-drivers. Hell, I even hate loud exhausts. You seem to make an assumption that MTI is wrong for catering to people that prefer proven and reliable setups. I have to inform you that this is the majority of the people here. Not everyone considers their f-body or Corvette a weekend-only toy, or something to terrorize the streets with. BUT, if that is what you are looking for, MTI would be glad to put together a more aggressive all-out package for you. Its not like they are not capable of doing so.

Tony

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

In that particular sentence, I am not talking about you at all... perhaps a re-read would help you see that I was trying to speak about my own preferences.

bodhi

Unstreetable is a very loose term. My definition of "unstreetable" is probably quite different fom yours.
Streetable to me means that it will handle driving in Houston traffic in August, and can get me home in the rain.
So basically, it has to avoid overheating, and have decent tires (ET Streets don;t count). I've had the pleasure of being caugh in the rain with those bad boys on- and it was a helluva ride home. 4k converter+et streets+4.56 gears+skinnys on the front= accident waiting to happen in the rain.
I would run a G5X2 cam on my 300 mile per week daily driver. No problem. As long as the car didn't overheat or die when the A/C was on- I'd love it. Lotsa people wouldn't.
A lot of people go so far as to say that anything that produces more than stock emmissons is "unstreetable" or cats being removed from stock location or a car that cruises at 80mph and runs more than 3k rpm.

bodhi

OK. Had they been cordial enough to give me this information and do it without attitude, I might have given them my money. This was not the case when I spoke with them. As I said before- I was given nothing but attitude all the way around. They essentially told me what I wanted. When I attempted to correct them about MY NEEDS- they again said that it wouldn't work.
I purchased my 2001 NHRA SE Formula from Gay Pontiac in July 2001. Shortly thereafter, I began the search for more power and mods. As with most people that purchase LS1's- you can't help but know the name MTI- they are synonymous. So I begin my research and reading on the sites. I look for people that were pushing the envelope and getting away with it. TR230 was the NEW thing on the block. Everyone was ooohhing and ahhhing over much the way they are the G5X2/3/4 cams now. "it's too vig for the street, you need lotsa gear, etc..." That's what most were saying. I call MTI. They insist on selling me a T1 or B1 (can't remember exactly). Anyway I was very adamant about wanting more. MTI was even more adamant about telling me that it wouldn't work.
So I called Paul @ Thunder (very nice man- I talked his ear off for days and he never had a problem answering my questions and if he couldn't answer them- he found the answer and called me back). With his help, I decided upon a 228/224 XER. Noone that I had ever seen had this cam. There were bigger, but I didn't want to spin my motor over 6800. Chris at Speeddemon installed it and tuned it. (did an excellent tune I must say). The car put down 406rwhp/ 391rwtq. I was ecstatic.
MTI said that it could not be done. They said that it would take a huge cam that wouldn't be good for anything but drag racing. They said that I would have to spin the motor way to high.

I accomplished my goal without the magical MTI and for a large sum of money less. I know that I saved $700 on the install- (I paid Chris $300 for the install, and $350 to tune) MTI wanted $1000 to install and $500 to tune. Plus whatever I saved by purchasing the cam kit from TR as compared to MTI.
Had I gone with MTI and their B1 or T1 cam- I would have paid over $2000 for much less power than I have now.
I guess in a way they did me a favor. Had they been cool, I wouldn't have gone searching elsewhere and done the homework to decide on what I wanted.

J-Rod

Hey Bohdi. I have a friend who had the same issue. He had a H/C done @ MTI. He wanted a G5X2 or an equivilant cam. The biggest cam MTI would do was an X1. MTI simply will not install something they haven't tried and can back up. Its just that simple. Again, they aren't putting the bleeding edge stuff in. My buddy tried numerous times to get his cam bumped up to something bigger. He is happy with his X1, but he would have preferred something a bit larger. But, that is simply not something MTI does. They develop and prove their packages. Putting in a cam from another vendors with springs other than what they set their in house stuff up with is simply asking for trouble from a shop standpoint... Try to understand it from that perspective.

And if cost is the big issue, do the R&D, and acquire the skills to do it yourslef without a needing a shop. For me, I can do just about anything short of porting heads myself. I don't have a flowbench, so that is something I have to farm out. To me every vendor is to high since I can build a motor on my own. But, most folks don't have those skills, so they have to pay for someone's expertise in those areas. If you are going to play you got to pay one way or the other.

Louis

iTrader: (7)

Poor Guy,

I really like the stock CID, forged internal motors. Im going to build one for myself here in the next 6-8 months.

Diamond pistons, Eagle/scat/REV connecting rods, and a stock crank. Everything is an off the shelf part, and there is not an arm and a leg required to build one.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do!


Louis

bodhi

That's all fine and dandy, but I didn't purchase this car to be conservative. Granted I certainly don't want to blow it up, so I'll you proper judgement and reason when modding it. This car is not about gas mileage, emissions, or creature comforts. It's about performance. I like to haul ***. I like to beat other cars that haul ***. I want to find the edge, take 2 steps back and dance my *** off. This why I set a limit on my max rpm, and bought the components that I did. I want the most power available and still feel comforatable that I won't blow it up anytime soon.
MTI finds the edge, builds a handrail, puts you in a safety harness, and then builds a sefety net at the bottom of the ledge- just in case. This hinders the party and raises the cost of admission.

poolfanatic

iTrader: (32)

Bodhi,

Looking at MTI in 2001 and MTI today is like comparing apples to oranges. I'm one of the biggest MTI supporters out there and even I had some issues with a clown who worked up there for a while. Guess what? Issue solved, relationship stronger than ever, happy customer.

Have you been up there lately? Talked to anyone there? Talked to Jayson in a while? I would guess not, but maybe it's something that you should try - you might be very pleasantly surprised.

(BTW, my Camaro made 555 to the rear wheels, I drove it everyday and MTI built it - I wouldn't exactly define that as conservative :p)

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Man, I gotta call BS on that $1000 cam swap quote. I'm positive that MTI has never charged a grand to install a simple cam swap. In fact, MTI was the first shop on the net to start offering cheap cam swap prices and cam install GPs. $1000 was their price for the parts AND labor.

example:
https://ls1tech.com/threads/showflat...;Number=669591