Hey Joe!!! I got an old school set of iron World Products Sportsman 2 heads... Can you do anything for them??? LMAO...

Excellent pricing on your heads. Good to see quality things getting more affordable.

Jim

 

Eric,

I ordered some parts.... They include some odd requests, so please help Joe out with them, I need them like yesterday and I know he has lots of stuff to do.

Joe, as usual, is the best performance parts guy I've ever talked to.

We'll be talking more in the future.


To the world: Get ready to be shocked, PacerX is on the invention warpath again... filed away Patent #14 today. WOOT! Something completely unrelated to cylinder heads, BTW...

 

My guess is Delphi. if I'm right do I win anything?
Chris

 

PacerX:

Is your company so secret that you can post a phone number but not the company name?

Just curious if it was MASCO.

 

Guys, I mine the internet daily in my job to identify what is or is not the state of the art, what programs are coming, when they are coming and what, if any, technology we have that can be a fit. I work in research and development, so this is kind of an important part of my job.

In doing this, I need to keep a low profile relative to my company in that I don't want to be viewed as a representative thereof for public issues. They have people who have a lot better social skills than me that are better looking and wear nicer clothes to do that job. So, in talking about my company or what we do and how we do it, I have to defer to them.

Not trying to be sneaky or a jerk or anything, but I have to maintain decorum, especially since I love my job and want to keep it.

BTW - it's not Delphi or Masco, and that's about all I can say.

 

Damn this is like the showdown at the O.K Corral.

Classic Man vs. Machine arguement.

I've got my popcorn and coke in hand guys, this is to

 

PacerX,CIA,DOD,Black OPS?

BTW-good job on the brake,works A/OK.

 

JFM:
You're on a need to know basis, so after he tells you...
well let's just say it was nice knowing you.

 

He'd tell ya, but then he'd have to kill ya

 

PacerX, I have a question on CNC for you.

I've heard several times from different folks that not every hand ported intake track will digitalize properly. I've also been told the CNC machines have 1/2 inch bits that can't always hit every angle inside a 5/8 inch exhaust port. Please clarify.

 

Im sure the new heads will rock just like all his other heads do. From my personal experience with him I feel comfortable in saying that Joe is very sincere about his work and that he definitly won't steer you wrong.

 

1) You can buy any tool in nearly any diameter for a CNC mill. Milling, drilling, reaming, engraving, etc.... When they are talking about 1/2" diameters, they're probably talking about the shank diameter, there are smaller tools.

Directly from Cincinnati's site:
"Control options such as 5-axis Tool Length Compensation (TLC) and 5-axis Cutter Diameter Compensation (CDC) allow automatic processing with tools that vary in length and diameter, thereby eliminating program modifications and the need to buy expensive preset tools."

Basically, the machine figures out the diameter and length of whatever tool it wants to use out of the 21 it has to pick from and AUTOMATICALLY adjusts the programming to compensate for the tool.

Here's the link to a shop that makes tools and specialty tools, note the miniature end mills at the bottom of the page:

http://www.brubakertool.com/

The machines I deal with have tool changers (indexes) from 21 tools and up... you can polish too. The machining center automatically drops off the current tool, picks up the new one, makes sure it's the right diameter and length, and then goes to town.

http://www.cinmach.com/products/vert_set.htm

Poke around there for awhile. Check out the Cincinatti V5-2000E or the profilers in particular. Check out the picture of the V5 and note the angle that the head is at (the big red thingy with the tool on it inside the machine) - 3 axis machines can't do that.

Here are the listed accuracies:
X-Y-Z Positioning, each Axis over Full Travel Standard (linear scales) +/- .00023" (+/- .006 mm)
X-Y-Z Repeatability, each Axis over Full Travel Standard (linear scales) +/- .00008" (+/- .002 mm)
A-B Positioning +/- 20 arcseconds
A-B Repeatability +/- 8 arcseconds

That's right kids, this thing can position a tool to within .00008". That's EIGHT ONE HUNDRED THOUSANDTHS of an inch.

2) The ability to reach certain areas of the part depends primarily on the type of machine. A simple 3 axis machine can only move up/down, left/right, fore/aft. When you start adding axes above 3, what you get is the ability to rotate the tool head around those primary axes. Think of a 6 axis machine like universal on a ratchet - it can point and cut anywhere.

3) Certain operations, at worst, would require the part to be fixtured twice so that the machine can get at something underneath whatever surface you happen to working on at that point. If we're REALLY smart about this, we can figure out a fixture that holds the head on an angle so that it doesn't have to be re-fixtured.

4) ANYTHING can be digitized. Most of the prototype shops in this area that do lots of body parts use a laser system UNLESS they get primary CAD data - which is a worthwhile question to ask of the OEM's. GMPP MIGHT be willing to let someone have the Unigraphics model of the part, and then I don't have to digitize it.

Option #2 is to skip the laser digitizing and start taking points with a CMM.

5) This is a (really poor quality) movie of a 4.00" face mill, 5 blades 3.00" wide x .287" deep at 120 IPM. 3,000 RPM. 103 cubic ipm, 28 horsepower.

http://www.cinmach.com/products/Vide.../STDHPCUT.mpeg

The machine is blasting off a quarter inch of material and traveling at 120 inches per minute. That's flying... AND this is the LOW HORSEPOWER one.

 

I'll admit I don't have much experience with CNC but I had a friend of mine who used to work with one. They made crash test dummies and had to fabricate the parts from scratch. I remember some of the parts looking like they were polished because the cuts were so fine. I still have some questions though. Why the fear from JPR in getting his work digitized? Anybody could buy a set of the heads and have them digitized. Also, the first post in this thread references the CNC heads as a Walmart type product. If it so inferior, why would you be willing to put your name on it? I hope this doesn't sound like I'm attacking but I just think it might need to be clarified.
I work in the calendering of PVC plastics. We deal with ISO, QS, blah blah blah. One of the goals as an Engineer is to take out the "art" in runnning the machine in order for us to produce a more consistant product everytime we run it. I hear from the controllers all the time "you can't take the human part out of it". I often wonder if they are worried that they will be replaced by a machine when they make those comments because we are taking the "art" out of the process. We make better products today with through consistancy and achieve that consistancy with machines (including computers).
This also reminds of the old mechanics that used to complain that cars can't be worked on anymore because of "them dang computers in em". Like it was a conspiracy in the automotive industry to get rid of all the backyard mechanics forcing everyone to go the dealer for service.
Chris

 

Dude Didnt u see the Matrix? The machines ARE trying to take over from us. We cant give them that much power. We humans need to stick together.

 

Here's the fact of the matter...

The smartest head porter will make the best heads. The machine CANNOT do this on it's own, no matter how much you spend on it. HOW he manufactures the heads is merely a matter of efficiency - which in the long run means cost.

Joe Prince is the best head porter I've ever run into.

 

so what are the specs on the heads?

 

Pacer X,

Thanks for the info, tells me a lot about the heads CNC'd by certain folks I've talked with.

I would also like to hear your take on the following:

Is it possible for the digitalizing to actually make a better port than orginal? Reason I asked is a sponsor on this board that will remain nameless, claimed while this seems impossible, they actually had it occur once. The hand ported port flowed X amount the CNC'd copy flowed X + About 5-10 cfm.

Based on what you posted above, I would tend to think this would imply a crude digitalizion of the orginal port. So that CNC port was actually slightly different.

Also if everything Pacer is saying is correct, can't someone just buy a set of whatever heads they think are best and crank out carbon copies?

Seems like if CNC is all that cheap, it would easy enough to do. Get a great head and laser digitalize it use high quality CNC and your home free.

I'm not suggesting anyone do this but it seems like keeping the programs confidential is actually meaningless, if you can easily and accurately digitalize from the part.

 

You're welcome. I'll talk yer ear off if ya let me.



Yes it is possible, but a bigger shop would do it differently than you're thinking. The way it sounds like it happened was more accident than planning.

Big shops will take a port/runner design and run a finite element analysis of the flow of the intake/exhaust charge through the port and then modify the design to optimize the port.

This type of analysis is pretty expensive stuff. You need an expensive software package, a powerful computer and a real egghead just to run the software package - and another egghead to check things and make sure the first egghead didn't screw it up.

When NASCAR teams ask GM for engine help, GM whips out their collection of eggheads and cranks up the supercomputers.

What generally happens in the aftermarket is that an expert head porter goes to town and figures out what works through experiment.


Yep. That's seems to be the case.



Not really, and here's why:

To digitize the head, you need a laser scanning system or a CMM and the proper fixturing. The laser system and the CMM are BIG BUCKS, along with the expert required to run them.

Then, you have to have the machine. If any of the shops who do work here have a machine anything like the big Cincinnati I showed you links to, I'd be shocked. Those are incredibly expensive items. Some of them easily top $1,000,000.

Third, you have to have the expertise to make the program - which means you have and expert to pay there.

THEN, you have to buy the fixturing. You DO NOT want some hack shop doing your fixturing - your parts will NEVER be any better than the fixtures that hold them.

Fixturing is key.

In short, you have to either become a world-class machining shop (shockingly expensive) OR have the contacts to get one to work for you.

Those contacts are the hardest thing to come by. I can't throw a rock out here without hitting a prototype shop with a CNC mill - the good ones, the REALLY good ones are far more rare.



Sooner or later someone will do something under-handed. It's sad, but true. That's why the guys who are the best keep striving for even loftier goals. Stay one step ahead.

 

Pacer X, thanks for your insights. In the industry I'm in piracy is a major issue. I tend to think in those terms when it comes to copying stuff regardless of if it's CD's, DVD's, files or cylinder heads.

Reading between the lines, I would guess that many of the "CNC'd" heads we are familar with on this board are actually fairly crude attempts compared to the level of expert machining your talking about.

While we're on the CNC topic. I'd like your take and everyone elses on CNC tool marks left in the chamber. Is that a good thing, bad thing or doesn't matter thing?

 

I can't speak for the shops here. I haven't seen their operations. It'd be pretty arrogant of me to doubt their abilities without seeing the product and methods.


I'm not an engine airflow expert. I just know you can get rid of the marks without doing hand work.