InvisibleSun

Darton has a new revised wet sleeve design which should eliminate the leakage. My block is one of the first (if not the first) one with the new design. MMS should have it back from the machinist this week (I hope) and I'll post some pictures and more info at that time...

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

I am one of the designers of the Darton kit and do the block machine work and installs so I thought I would fill you folks in on the product.

The Darton MID kit is a wet sleeve design not to be confused with dry kits using Darton sleeves. The material used is the same special ductile iron in both the wet and dry liners but the MID wet sleeves are .237" wall thickness at 4.125" bore size. They do not rely on the old cylinder wall for support as do the dry liners. The dry liners are considerably thinner ~ .060" wall at 4.125" bore with little parent block material left to support them. The MID sleeves can be individually replaced if damaged (broken piston, wrist pin, rings, etc.).

The wet sleeves have three buna rubber o'rings sealing coolant from the crankcase (same as diesel engines) where they are interference fit in the block. They are seated at the very bottom of the block water jacket and can not "drop" as can the dry sleeves since they are solidly seated with deck plates during the installation.

Early kits had problems with gasket seal between head and block but this problem has been resolved through R&D. We recommend only FelPro 1041 gaskets be used but copper will work also if one o'rings the sleeves. Multi layer steel gaskets are not recommended.

Advantages over the C5R and dry sleeves: much stronger than either, individually replacement of liners, no chance of dropped sleeves, will go to 4.165" bore, all machine work done on CNC equipment ensuring quality, cost effective solution for those wanting maximum output from their engines - you can have roughly three Darton MID sleeved blocks for the price of one C5R.

InvisibleSun

Thanks Steve! Can't wait to get some pictures of the motor when it gets back to MMS.

RED01TAWS6

Allied Motors is local to me and I've been there, they seem to be pretty knowledgeable about what they are doing. They did the machine work on a friends 383 LT1 and it was pretty good work. I can go there and ask in person about what they do to re-sleeve ls1's and what there shop is like. I've been there a few times and they seem to be pretty good.

ezss

I think Ive got JPR's first darton sleeved block. Ive got about 5k miles on it so far, no problems with the block (although all kinds of other problems like a broken moser 12 bolt, tuning issues because of larger injectors, etc..). All the internals are forged except the rods and crank, you can check on JPRs website for pricing, which included for me upgraded timing gears and chain, ported and shimmed oil pump, diamond pistons and rings, and excellent service which included joe driving 2+ hrs to my house and then riding 2 hours with me to the dyno to help break the motor in. I hope to get a set of his heads on the car too within the next month or so.

FAST LS1

iTrader: (2)

So with a 4.165" bore and a 4.125" stroke your looking at a 450ci LS1.
Or you could go with the stock crank and have a 395ci all bore motor

robertbartsch

Steve:
Great info - thanks.

Block = $600
Darton wet sleeves = $1,300
Machining = $1,000

...So the cost is about $3K, plus shipping, tax, ect. ...with a C5R costing about $6K you can only get about two Darton-sleeved blocks for the price of one C5R, right?

BaddMood

Steve how can you state that your wet sleeve design is better then the dry?? 2 maybe three years ago this may have been true but not now! If you were aware of whats been happening in the real world you could see that atleast one company has surely perfected the dry sleeve and until you match what they have done you should becareful of what you claim!! By the way how much power have you been able to run through one of these ls1,ls6 blocks so far looks like dry sleeves can hold 1200 flywheel HP until then dry is the way to go for me.I still think your design relies on the head bolts to hold the sides of the block together and we all know how good they are!!!!

robertbartsch

Hey Baddmood:
Most here would agree that the Darton wet sleeve is better than the dry sleeve; right?

BaddMood

why in this world would you all think that a wet sleeved LS1 not ecotec is better were not talking about other motors we are talking about LS1 ya you all are right lets take all the strength out of the block and yeah HOPE for the best! HAVE A NICE DAY DREAMER.Bring your sprinkler to the next shootout and water the grass BUD.

BradWS6

iTrader: (3)

I guess the Pratt&Miller C5R Corvettes are going to switch to the Darton blocks then?

Warbird

I would like to hear why you guys believe a wet sleeve is better and what the advantages you believe there to be.

I was probably the first person to have a resleeved LS1, period. My first block went together in October of 1999. I'm more than ready to relay the story. Aside from some minor differences my original design was virtually identical to this new Darton wet sleeve design.

I am painfully and intimately knowledgeable on most of the failure points of a wet sleeve interlocking and not.

To say the least the wet sleeves failed for a number of reasons. I'll write it up in the next day or so and post.

In the meantime explain why this new process is superior. Many of the old timers will likely remember back then.

Paul

p.s. I have seen a dry sleeved 422 that broke and severely damaged a sleeve. The sleeve was machined out, the block welded, a new one put in its place, the motor still runs very very strong and reliably to this day. The argument about being able to replace a sleeve the other way doesn't wash either.

ynneK

Actually, going along those lines, MTI has my confidence because a Vette running their 427 + Nitrous won One of Lap of America - drove across the US and raced on various roadcourses..

robertbartsch

BadMood:
OK but the guy who designed the Darton wet sleeve says in this post that it is stronger than the C5R and the Darton dry sleeve blocks.... in addition, the wet sleeves have better thermal properties...

I would take this as knowledge straight from the horses' mouth; right?

We have all heard a ton of bad things about dropped dry sleeves. Do you really think the dry sleeved process has been perfected and no longer results in busted blocks?

I will say this. LPE advertises the Darton wets in their web page, ------>

....but I heard from others here that they have not shipped any yet. This does make you wonder if they have identified a problem with the wet sleeves....

robertbartsch

BadMood:
OK but the guy who designed the Darton wet sleeve says in this post that it is stronger than the C5R and the Darton dry sleeve blocks.... in addition, the wet sleeves have better thermal properties...

I would take this as knowledge straight from the horses' mouth; right?

We have all heard a ton of bad things about dropped dry sleeves. Do you really think the dry sleeved process has been perfected and no longer results in busted blocks?

I will say this. LPE advertises the Darton wets in their web page, ------>

....but I heard from others here that they have not shipped any yet. This does make you wonder if they have identified a problem with the wet sleeves....

BradWS6

iTrader: (3)

I'm Pretty sure the MTI Vette one Lap Of America Vette is using a C5R Block...

Bear

iTrader: (1)

Some good info here, TTT. I have a wet sleeve block waiting to be assembled as we speak. I will say a prayer.LOL

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

The 1/4 time doesn't inspire me with the dry sleeves because the enviroment on the street over time is different and in some ways harsher with more frequent temprature cycling in normal driving etc. The ARE drys do seem to hold up on the daily driver ARE set ups, I think thats fairly inspiring.

Chicago Crew UnderBoss

iTrader: (1)

I have personally seen up close and heard idling the MTI Z07 car that won the one lap of america and spoke for a 1/2 hour with one of the owners trusted employees who was there with the car. I can assure you guys that said car runs the C5R block also in response to the following:

"OK but the guy who designed the Darton wet sleeve says in this post that it is stronger than the C5R and the Darton dry sleeve blocks.... in addition, the wet sleeves have better thermal properties..."

Do you always believe what people tell you or what a salesman claims about his product? I hope not!!!!!!!!!! At any rate, not to discredit the DARTON SLEEVES REP. here who has provided alot of info and claims about his DARTON BLOCKS, his block may turn out to be kick azz and reliable/durable as claimed, but the jury is out on this product as it has not yet been battled tested like the C5R block has, time and time again, in hardcore racing circuit like LEMANS, etc.

ALso, i personally spoke with ED POTTER at LPE and he told me that their DARTON sleeved block is not offered yet as they are still doing R&D b/c of their block is not yet perfected, etc.

GO THREAD HERE no doubt!

jfm

iTrader: (4)

So,if money were no object,go the C5R block.I cant do that,so,

MTI sleeve motor = early on they had some dropped sleeves[I think Nineball dropped one]but now they have changed something and cut down the percentage of bad sleeves?

ARE = I have no idea what the failure rate is but from this post,it seems to be low.

Darton = well I guess we have to wait and see.I think if LPE is still not offering them,well I dont know.ARE,Darton,once again from this post they seem to have a low rate of failure but ARE uses their own priority system.

Question,when sleeves drop or Dartons leak,when does it show up? Is it usually fairly quick or does it take a while?