Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads
08-31-2003, 07:58 PM
#21
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Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads
well, i talked to Brent at TEA, and i explained what i want exactly, so he gave a good price that i cant beat. i dont think that i will spend 3300$ on a truck heads, i know Bennett Racing name is way up there and i know they will give me a good price, but i cant spend that much money on heads espacially if 700$ going back to my pocket 
Read up on what the last dozen TEA headed cars have dyno'd that posted on this board. I think you find 2/3 are in the 396rwhp to 420rwhp with a few at ~435 to ~440 rwhp.
TEA has great rep in the Ford world but not all of their expertise in the Ford world seems to directly transfer to the LS1/GM world. I have TEA Stage 2 5.3 heads that stall at .500 lift with the LS6 intake in place. They flow a max of 250 cfm at .500 with the intake in place. TEA may have revised the valve job and corrected this. While my TEA's were stated to flow 255 cfm on exhaust w/pipe, when tested without a pipe they actually flowed a mere 200cfm on exhaust. Brian at TEA was made fully aware of my findings and I was told my heads should make great power as is. The results is a very ordinary/below average 408rwhp thru exhaust & 418rwhp thru but out.
If you get TEA heads for your project, I strongly suggest you get the heads flowed what whatever intake you select attached.
For a 12.5 compressino roller motor, I would think you'll want a head customized to your needs. I would not put a set of heads that stall at .500 w/LS6 intake place on an engine like your talking about.
Your putting down ~420RWHP with a 224 cam. Just from observations it seems your putting out more or less what you should for your particular setup. Were you expecting to make?
I am just trying to understand why you keep bringing up TEA heads "stall" when your putting down good numbers. Are the track times not backing them up? What kind of times do you run? Trap speeds? Whats the lift on the cam?
Who did the flow testing?
Thanks for the info
08-31-2003, 08:21 PM
#22
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads 420rwhp is ordinary/below avg????? Actually 400rwhp is the avg for H/C package. Anything above that is cake. How can you compare a 224/224 cam with a 232/240 cam? I have been to a bunch of dyno days.. Until I see these 440rwhp cars dyno on my local dyno.. Their #'s are mythical to me and the locals in my area. People in my area use the same vendors on this board for their packages and NO ONE has dyno'd over 425rwhp on a H/C package. Let me repeat that.. NO ONE HAS DYNO'd over 425rwhp. This may make some of you angry, but that is a personal problem. I invite anyone to come to our local dyno's and dyno 440rwhp.. Tampa, Florida is a beautiful place to visit and I have a extra room you can shack up in while you dyno and party..
08-31-2003, 08:26 PM
#23
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads OK, so here's my .02$. Please think about this for a second because once, a long time ago in a far away place, I tried building a Solid Roller LS1.
1) There are *several* gotchas and tricks in building a solid roller LS1. A few vendors have done the work to figure these out, and thats not many. I know that Futral, MTI, and Thunder Racing have built successful, reliable solid roller motors. Im sure I missed one or two that have also. PLEASE consult with them before you do this. Theres things like longer valves, clearanced pushrod holes, etc. that can get you in big trouble if you dont have built into the head in the first place.
2) Buy a head from the folks that provide you the best solid roller history and advice. If you were prepared to spend 3k$ on heads, you may be pleasantly surprised what you get for less. I know Futral comes to mind when people talk about both great value and solid rollers. So does Thunder Racing. MTI makes extremely insanely powerful and capable solid rollers, but that perfection costs $$$. Knowing what I know about solid roller motors, I'd save up for MTI just for the peace of mind.
3) Are you having a bottom end built? If so, Futral, TR, and MTI among others build bottom ends for solid rollers. That doesnt mean anything special, just that its wise to be ready for the 7500 rpm the car still makes power at. If you are not going to have a bottom end built, I assume you know about notching stock pistons in the block. Only certain vendors are good at this and its something that again I'd trust to be built into a whole "system". Remember though that the rod bolts on these motors are notorious for letting go at under peak solid-roller power.
These are all things that several sponsors of this board know and have done. PLEASE dont let an inexperienced vendor take you down the solid roller path. It cost me more than the price of another Camaro. Then the 3k$!!! price of the head porting will seem like pennies.
I have never heard of TEA putting together a solid roller LS1 motor.
chris
1) There are *several* gotchas and tricks in building a solid roller LS1. A few vendors have done the work to figure these out, and thats not many. I know that Futral, MTI, and Thunder Racing have built successful, reliable solid roller motors. Im sure I missed one or two that have also. PLEASE consult with them before you do this. Theres things like longer valves, clearanced pushrod holes, etc. that can get you in big trouble if you dont have built into the head in the first place.
2) Buy a head from the folks that provide you the best solid roller history and advice. If you were prepared to spend 3k$ on heads, you may be pleasantly surprised what you get for less. I know Futral comes to mind when people talk about both great value and solid rollers. So does Thunder Racing. MTI makes extremely insanely powerful and capable solid rollers, but that perfection costs $$$. Knowing what I know about solid roller motors, I'd save up for MTI just for the peace of mind.
3) Are you having a bottom end built? If so, Futral, TR, and MTI among others build bottom ends for solid rollers. That doesnt mean anything special, just that its wise to be ready for the 7500 rpm the car still makes power at. If you are not going to have a bottom end built, I assume you know about notching stock pistons in the block. Only certain vendors are good at this and its something that again I'd trust to be built into a whole "system". Remember though that the rod bolts on these motors are notorious for letting go at under peak solid-roller power.
These are all things that several sponsors of this board know and have done. PLEASE dont let an inexperienced vendor take you down the solid roller path. It cost me more than the price of another Camaro. Then the 3k$!!! price of the head porting will seem like pennies.
I have never heard of TEA putting together a solid roller LS1 motor.
chris
08-31-2003, 09:16 PM
#24
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Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads
Until I see these 440rwhp cars dyno on my local dyno.. Their #'s are mythical to me and the locals in my area. People in my area use the same vendors on this board for their packages and NO ONE has dyno'd over 425rwhp on a H/C package. Let me repeat that.. NO ONE HAS DYNO'd over 425rwhp. This may make some of you angry, but that is a personal problem. I invite anyone to come to our local dyno's and dyno 440rwhp.
08-31-2003, 11:37 PM
#26
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads How about the technical aspect of CNC porting? I'm not here to bash or applaud anyone on the board, but CNC porting is only as good as the programer, the orginal head port and the care the company takes to make sure it's a good port.
One thing we don't see here on LS1 heads is the tight tool paths (meaning how much space is between passes from the cutter the machine uses)
CNC machines are all about money. If you are paying for a $500 CNC job vs a $1500 CNC job (this is just for the porting) you are going to get a better quality replication out of the $1500 port because it's taking the machine 3 times longer to complete. That means they take a rough pass and a final pass, they don't heat up the cutters as much and they have very narrow tool paths.
One reason we see $1200 CNC ported heads and $3000 CNC ported heads.
Now granted the pricing on a set of heads not just the CNC work is partly due to the other things like valve jobs, milling, parts and also the quality of the port being replicated. So when you look at CNC heads and go by pricing, you really should look at that a little closer. You never get what you don't pay for in CNC machines.
One thing that is sad to see on here is the people saying that heads are dynoing low. It's a dyno in a different part of the country and there are so many variables here that 20rwhp is not really in the realm of accuracy to conclude anything.
On the other hand flow benches. How does it not suprise me to see these two comments in this thread.
1. "which they hold the highest flow rates on heads in the country."
2. "I have seen some of his heads on other peoples flow benches... i know 2-3 percent variance can be expected....BUT ive seen 45-50 cfm difference between what he advertises and what his head actually flowed..."
That is the truth. If the numbers look REALLY REALLY high then they probably are faked or tweaked.
If we are going to talk about benches being high, how about guys that have low benches. I've heard from a good amount of people that West Coast's bench is low, and their numbers are very good for having a low bench, and @ $1600 for a set of heads. I'm amazed we don't see more people running their heads.
The suggestion someone had here about going to SAM and talking to Casey is a good one. There are some guys that came out of SAM with him that are also awesome with these heads.
Honestly to pay $3,000 for a set of 5.3L or LS1 heads you better get some Pacalloy Solid Roller Springs, Lightweight Ti retainers, Ti Valves and coated chambers and exhaust ports with them.
If you want to spend $3K on heads for these motors, a LS6 casting and someone like Casey is the BEST way to spend it. That's probably not going to come with the valvetrain parts either. Then again a real 350cfm doesn't come cheap.
One more thing, I think TEA is fully capable of giving you a Solid Roller head setup for your car. I don't doubt that at all, they have enough racing experience to do the right things to the heads to make them work.
Just my thoughts
Bret
One thing we don't see here on LS1 heads is the tight tool paths (meaning how much space is between passes from the cutter the machine uses)
CNC machines are all about money. If you are paying for a $500 CNC job vs a $1500 CNC job (this is just for the porting) you are going to get a better quality replication out of the $1500 port because it's taking the machine 3 times longer to complete. That means they take a rough pass and a final pass, they don't heat up the cutters as much and they have very narrow tool paths.
One reason we see $1200 CNC ported heads and $3000 CNC ported heads.
Now granted the pricing on a set of heads not just the CNC work is partly due to the other things like valve jobs, milling, parts and also the quality of the port being replicated. So when you look at CNC heads and go by pricing, you really should look at that a little closer. You never get what you don't pay for in CNC machines.
One thing that is sad to see on here is the people saying that heads are dynoing low. It's a dyno in a different part of the country and there are so many variables here that 20rwhp is not really in the realm of accuracy to conclude anything.
On the other hand flow benches. How does it not suprise me to see these two comments in this thread.
1. "which they hold the highest flow rates on heads in the country."
2. "I have seen some of his heads on other peoples flow benches... i know 2-3 percent variance can be expected....BUT ive seen 45-50 cfm difference between what he advertises and what his head actually flowed..."
That is the truth. If the numbers look REALLY REALLY high then they probably are faked or tweaked.
If we are going to talk about benches being high, how about guys that have low benches. I've heard from a good amount of people that West Coast's bench is low, and their numbers are very good for having a low bench, and @ $1600 for a set of heads. I'm amazed we don't see more people running their heads.
The suggestion someone had here about going to SAM and talking to Casey is a good one. There are some guys that came out of SAM with him that are also awesome with these heads.
Honestly to pay $3,000 for a set of 5.3L or LS1 heads you better get some Pacalloy Solid Roller Springs, Lightweight Ti retainers, Ti Valves and coated chambers and exhaust ports with them.
If you want to spend $3K on heads for these motors, a LS6 casting and someone like Casey is the BEST way to spend it. That's probably not going to come with the valvetrain parts either. Then again a real 350cfm doesn't come cheap.
One more thing, I think TEA is fully capable of giving you a Solid Roller head setup for your car. I don't doubt that at all, they have enough racing experience to do the right things to the heads to make them work.
Just my thoughts
Bret
09-01-2003, 03:05 AM
#27
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Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads well the short block will be built to handle a 7500+ rpm ( FMS or Thunder gona built it). the only thing is making me scared to get is the heads. i know GTP has the best flowing heads around, but i dont like the heads breaking down and the combination is not right , and i have to send the heads back to them fix it.MTI are so expansive i dont know why. FMS, yes they have the best solid roller heads , and i wish i can affored them
to be honest, i am between TEA and Absolute heads, both gave good prices, i just want a head that will flow up to .700 with ls6 intake and better with custom intake.i dont need any stall in the heads espacially with the size of my cam.
to be honest, i am between TEA and Absolute heads, both gave good prices, i just want a head that will flow up to .700 with ls6 intake and better with custom intake.i dont need any stall in the heads espacially with the size of my cam.
09-01-2003, 08:09 AM
#28
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads
well the short block will be built to handle a 7500+ rpm ( FMS or Thunder gona built it). the only thing is making me scared to get is the heads. i know GTP has the best flowing heads around, but i dont like the heads breaking down and the combination is not right , and i have to send the heads back to them fix it.MTI are so expansive i dont know why. FMS, yes they have the best solid roller heads , and i wish i can affored them
to be honest, i am between TEA and Absolute heads, both gave good prices, i just want a head that will flow up to .700 with ls6 intake and better with custom intake.i dont need any stall in the heads espacially with the size of my cam.
to be honest, i am between TEA and Absolute heads, both gave good prices, i just want a head that will flow up to .700 with ls6 intake and better with custom intake.i dont need any stall in the heads espacially with the size of my cam.
09-01-2003, 09:07 AM
#29
TECH Fanatic
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads
How about the technical aspect of CNC porting? I'm not here to bash or applaud anyone on the board, but CNC porting is only as good as the programer, the orginal head port and the care the company takes to make sure it's a good port.
One thing we don't see here on LS1 heads is the tight tool paths (meaning how much space is between passes from the cutter the machine uses)
CNC machines are all about money. If you are paying for a $500 CNC job vs a $1500 CNC job (this is just for the porting) you are going to get a better quality replication out of the $1500 port because it's taking the machine 3 times longer to complete. That means they take a rough pass and a final pass, they don't heat up the cutters as much and they have very narrow tool paths.
One reason we see $1200 CNC ported heads and $3000 CNC ported heads.
One thing we don't see here on LS1 heads is the tight tool paths (meaning how much space is between passes from the cutter the machine uses)
CNC machines are all about money. If you are paying for a $500 CNC job vs a $1500 CNC job (this is just for the porting) you are going to get a better quality replication out of the $1500 port because it's taking the machine 3 times longer to complete. That means they take a rough pass and a final pass, they don't heat up the cutters as much and they have very narrow tool paths.
One reason we see $1200 CNC ported heads and $3000 CNC ported heads.
I agree in CNC time is money.FWIW I use a roughing pass and a fininsh pass.When using a 1/2 dia cutter,a .05 step over will leave a standing ridge of 0.00125314 high.In some areas I will use a .04 step over on the finish pass.
I market heads for $1295.00,this does not mean you get cheap quality.I personally strive to offer the visually best head possible.My goal is to offer the best head you can buy (REGARDLESS OF PRICE).
09-01-2003, 10:10 AM
#30
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads Spanky is right on the money. Do it right or look at the alternatives. Let FMS or Thunder do the whole package. It will be done right and if a problem comes up you have one responsible party to turn to (not to mention both have excellent reps on customer service).
09-01-2003, 11:25 AM
#31
TECH Fanatic
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads Terry,
Thanks for that. .05 - .04 Tool paths are about what I would expect for street heads. Going down to .020 is more for race stuff. A .020 tool path is going to take twice as long as a .040 tool path, that was part of my point. How much time does it take on the CNC to complete one of your heads?
Solid 346, I too have a Solid Roller being planned for my motor. Being a Comp Cams dealer helps that out a ton, the hard thing is that doing all the valvetrain for a solid roller on a LS1 the right way is going to cost MORE than a set of TEA or absolute or patriot heads by themselves.
A solid roller cam, springs, lifters, Ti retianers (lightweight ones at that), springs seats, locks, rocker arms, pushrods, lifters and billet timing chain is close if not more than $2K!
So you are looking at $3500-$4000 for a solid roller heads and cam package. If you're going to do a solid roller vs a 383 all bore, I would say this is a little more cost effective than a whole motor, throw in a $2000 resleaving or a $2000 crank vs a 346 build. Adding 40 more cubes should warrant much better heads not worse. The limit on heads is not all the head porter here, it's the castings. Obviously a LS6 casting is going to get you better numbers.
Either way good luck!
Bret
(using the old guy's logon)
Thanks for that. .05 - .04 Tool paths are about what I would expect for street heads. Going down to .020 is more for race stuff. A .020 tool path is going to take twice as long as a .040 tool path, that was part of my point. How much time does it take on the CNC to complete one of your heads?
Solid 346, I too have a Solid Roller being planned for my motor. Being a Comp Cams dealer helps that out a ton, the hard thing is that doing all the valvetrain for a solid roller on a LS1 the right way is going to cost MORE than a set of TEA or absolute or patriot heads by themselves.
A solid roller cam, springs, lifters, Ti retianers (lightweight ones at that), springs seats, locks, rocker arms, pushrods, lifters and billet timing chain is close if not more than $2K!
So you are looking at $3500-$4000 for a solid roller heads and cam package. If you're going to do a solid roller vs a 383 all bore, I would say this is a little more cost effective than a whole motor, throw in a $2000 resleaving or a $2000 crank vs a 346 build. Adding 40 more cubes should warrant much better heads not worse. The limit on heads is not all the head porter here, it's the castings. Obviously a LS6 casting is going to get you better numbers.
Either way good luck!
Bret
(using the old guy's logon)
09-01-2003, 11:18 PM
#32
Re: Bennett Racing Ls1 Heads Terry,
Thanks for that. .05 - .04 Tool paths are about what I would expect for street heads. Going down to .020 is more for race stuff. A .020 tool path is going to take twice as long as a .040 tool path, that was part of my point. How much time does it take on the CNC to complete one of your heads?
Solid 346, I too have a Solid Roller being planned for my motor. Being a Comp Cams dealer helps that out a ton, the hard thing is that doing all the valvetrain for a solid roller on a LS1 the right way is going to cost MORE than a set of TEA or absolute or patriot heads by themselves.
A solid roller cam, springs, lifters, Ti retianers (lightweight ones at that), springs seats, locks, rocker arms, pushrods, lifters and billet timing chain is close if not more than $2K!
So you are looking at $3500-$4000 for a solid roller heads and cam package. If you're going to do a solid roller vs a 383 all bore, I would say this is a little more cost effective than a whole motor, throw in a $2000 resleaving or a $2000 crank vs a 346 build. Adding 40 more cubes should warrant much better heads not worse. The limit on heads is not all the head porter here, it's the castings. Obviously a LS6 casting is going to get you better numbers.
Either way good luck!
Bret (This time it's on the right log on)
Thanks for that. .05 - .04 Tool paths are about what I would expect for street heads. Going down to .020 is more for race stuff. A .020 tool path is going to take twice as long as a .040 tool path, that was part of my point. How much time does it take on the CNC to complete one of your heads?
Solid 346, I too have a Solid Roller being planned for my motor. Being a Comp Cams dealer helps that out a ton, the hard thing is that doing all the valvetrain for a solid roller on a LS1 the right way is going to cost MORE than a set of TEA or absolute or patriot heads by themselves.
A solid roller cam, springs, lifters, Ti retianers (lightweight ones at that), springs seats, locks, rocker arms, pushrods, lifters and billet timing chain is close if not more than $2K!
So you are looking at $3500-$4000 for a solid roller heads and cam package. If you're going to do a solid roller vs a 383 all bore, I would say this is a little more cost effective than a whole motor, throw in a $2000 resleaving or a $2000 crank vs a 346 build. Adding 40 more cubes should warrant much better heads not worse. The limit on heads is not all the head porter here, it's the castings. Obviously a LS6 casting is going to get you better numbers.
Either way good luck!
Bret (This time it's on the right log on)
