Fiber Tuned Intake Review with pictures
01-15-2009, 10:36 AM
#264
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Well, I spent the day at Slowhawks new shop. He had a willing customer who had a 383 Camaro, AFR heads 236/238 XFI cam on 113+2 car. The car had on it a Slowhawk ported FAST. Althogh it wasn't the best motor for a short runner manifold, it was a good canidate to compare to what Carlos was seeing.
Don did the baseline with the FAST yessterday, and had the car on the dyno when I got there.
We pulled the FAST out and swapped it in with the fibertuned. It went in without any problems, although still a PITA compared to swapping them on a GTO.
After swapping the FAST for the 4" runner manifold the car started right up and idled nicely. He did an initial pull, and noticed that the MAP sensor was reading 10+ points lower kpa compared the the FAST. This is similar to what Carlos noted, we, then relocated it to the front of the plenum, and it went back up signifigantly. After that Don did a full dyno pull. The midrange was rich, but the AFR settled down as it neared redline. Don didn't bother trying to optimise the tune, we can make some assumptions that the rich area could be improved upon slightly but there was really no point to spend the time, since it was going to be removed a few minutes later. After another pull to confirm it, we were content that we saw everything we needed to. I'm at home right now with no scanner, but below is a cell phone pic of the curve overlays. Suprising the short runner made identical torque from 3,000-3500, then drifted down about 15-20hp throughout most of the curve, peaking at 435rwhp, vs. the FASTs 451rwhp (down 16rwhp) Some of that could have been recovered by optimising the tune, but certainly not enough. The other thing to note is that this motor was done by 6400rpms, no matter what intake was on it. I'm not sure if that was driven by the intake or something else.
The top line (blue) is the Slowhawk Ported FAST
Middle line (green) 4" runner
Bottom line (red) experimental 5.25" runner
After this we pulled the intake off again, and this time swapped it out for a 5.25" runner manifold we wanted to try. This manifold has a plenum divider, like the 4" runner. But with the longer runners there wasn't much room above them to draw air from. This version didn't perform very well because of it.
During the day we have some good ideas on what runner to design next. I'll share details when its ready, but it will be much longer than 4". I expect to have something ready in 2 weeks for more testing.
Also, can't forget to thank Don again for setting up the car, and having such a nice shop to work in!
Don did the baseline with the FAST yessterday, and had the car on the dyno when I got there.
We pulled the FAST out and swapped it in with the fibertuned. It went in without any problems, although still a PITA compared to swapping them on a GTO.
After swapping the FAST for the 4" runner manifold the car started right up and idled nicely. He did an initial pull, and noticed that the MAP sensor was reading 10+ points lower kpa compared the the FAST. This is similar to what Carlos noted, we, then relocated it to the front of the plenum, and it went back up signifigantly. After that Don did a full dyno pull. The midrange was rich, but the AFR settled down as it neared redline. Don didn't bother trying to optimise the tune, we can make some assumptions that the rich area could be improved upon slightly but there was really no point to spend the time, since it was going to be removed a few minutes later. After another pull to confirm it, we were content that we saw everything we needed to. I'm at home right now with no scanner, but below is a cell phone pic of the curve overlays. Suprising the short runner made identical torque from 3,000-3500, then drifted down about 15-20hp throughout most of the curve, peaking at 435rwhp, vs. the FASTs 451rwhp (down 16rwhp) Some of that could have been recovered by optimising the tune, but certainly not enough. The other thing to note is that this motor was done by 6400rpms, no matter what intake was on it. I'm not sure if that was driven by the intake or something else.
The top line (blue) is the Slowhawk Ported FAST
Middle line (green) 4" runner
Bottom line (red) experimental 5.25" runner
After this we pulled the intake off again, and this time swapped it out for a 5.25" runner manifold we wanted to try. This manifold has a plenum divider, like the 4" runner. But with the longer runners there wasn't much room above them to draw air from. This version didn't perform very well because of it.
During the day we have some good ideas on what runner to design next. I'll share details when its ready, but it will be much longer than 4". I expect to have something ready in 2 weeks for more testing.
Also, can't forget to thank Don again for setting up the car, and having such a nice shop to work in!
+1..
01-15-2009, 11:48 AM
#266
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im glad you got you power back Carlos. Atleast you know you dont have any other problems, and hats off to 860 for their effort in this whole ordeal and their continued support for trying to improve their product.
01-15-2009, 09:24 PM
#268
I spoke to Vinny on the phone today. He is very committed to both me being happy and this intake working out. We have come to an arrangement that I find palatable. He is making some modifications and will be making it worth my while to continue down the guinea pig trail. But in all seriousness, this entire thing could have degenerated into a huge pissing match if he hadn't turned out to be such a stand-up guy. I have renewed faith and optimism. More vendors/manufacturers should subscribe to this mentality. Let's see what comes next.
Stay Tuned!
Stay Tuned!
I almost forgot my car's tune is still be tweaked in.
01-15-2009, 10:52 PM
#269
Hello everyone. I am sorry I am just now steping into this thread. I was out of town the entire month of December and tonight is the first night I have been able to read all 16 pages of this thread and respond. I have been on the phone with Vinny through this entire adventure.
I have alot I would like to say to many people in this thread.
Carlos, You have been a stand up guy. I know you have put in alot of time in this and everyone is going to bennifit from your sacrifice. Thank you for working through this and being very honest and fair. Most of all understanding.
Tony Mamo, I have read every post you made here and I have aggreed with everthing you have said. I have never meet you but I talk to alot of people in this industry and you are well respected and highly thought of. I am glad to see you helping in this thread. Thank you.
To all of our customers involved. Bare with us. Vinny is very commited to getting the design perfected and the acceptable results. Yes maybe this intake came to market alittle to soon. After seeing the results on the GTO and on the flow bench it was thought to be ready. Assuming the LS1 style cathederal port would be the same was a mistake.
I would like to assure everyone that if there was anyone I would trust to stand behind there product its Vinny. I have been dealing with Vinny for well over 7 or so years now. We have had many buisness dealings together and I trust him very much. This is why when he asked me if we would be the distribution hub for his intake I was honored and happy to say yes. His responses in this post should speak loud for what type of person he is. You will notice there are no BS excuses. Just simply ok Let me change some things and we WILL GET THE RESULTS WE ARE LOOKING FOR.
Vinny has put many non stop late nights into this project. He will get this right so please stay tuned and see what the ending results are.
If any of our customers have anything they would like to discuss with me shoot me a pm or give me a call at the shop. I am slowly catching back up but I will be heading back out of state next week to help a dealer out.
I will try to stay on this thread.
ps. Its good to see a good old fasion tech thread back on this forum. Its been a while.
Thanks
Dave
I have alot I would like to say to many people in this thread.
Carlos, You have been a stand up guy. I know you have put in alot of time in this and everyone is going to bennifit from your sacrifice. Thank you for working through this and being very honest and fair. Most of all understanding.
Tony Mamo, I have read every post you made here and I have aggreed with everthing you have said. I have never meet you but I talk to alot of people in this industry and you are well respected and highly thought of. I am glad to see you helping in this thread. Thank you.
To all of our customers involved. Bare with us. Vinny is very commited to getting the design perfected and the acceptable results. Yes maybe this intake came to market alittle to soon. After seeing the results on the GTO and on the flow bench it was thought to be ready. Assuming the LS1 style cathederal port would be the same was a mistake.
I would like to assure everyone that if there was anyone I would trust to stand behind there product its Vinny. I have been dealing with Vinny for well over 7 or so years now. We have had many buisness dealings together and I trust him very much. This is why when he asked me if we would be the distribution hub for his intake I was honored and happy to say yes. His responses in this post should speak loud for what type of person he is. You will notice there are no BS excuses. Just simply ok Let me change some things and we WILL GET THE RESULTS WE ARE LOOKING FOR.
Vinny has put many non stop late nights into this project. He will get this right so please stay tuned and see what the ending results are.
If any of our customers have anything they would like to discuss with me shoot me a pm or give me a call at the shop. I am slowly catching back up but I will be heading back out of state next week to help a dealer out.
I will try to stay on this thread.
ps. Its good to see a good old fasion tech thread back on this forum. Its been a while.
Thanks
Dave
01-16-2009, 12:41 PM
#271
Dave,
I must say that I was not impressed with the lack of urgency that I received from some of your employees in the beginning of this process. Vinny has saved this deal for you guys in my book. Please pass on to your people that when you drop $5,000+ on a couple of orders, you expect to receive calls back in a timely manner. Thanks for showing up and I trust that you will pass this info along.
Regards,
Carlos
I must say that I was not impressed with the lack of urgency that I received from some of your employees in the beginning of this process. Vinny has saved this deal for you guys in my book. Please pass on to your people that when you drop $5,000+ on a couple of orders, you expect to receive calls back in a timely manner. Thanks for showing up and I trust that you will pass this info along.
Regards,
Carlos
01-16-2009, 05:50 PM
#272
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Dave,
I must say that I was not impressed with the lack of urgency that I received from some of your employees in the beginning of this process. Vinny has saved this deal for you guys in my book. Please pass on to your people that when you drop $5,000+ on a couple of orders, you expect to receive calls back in a timely manner. Thanks for showing up and I trust that you will pass this info along.
Regards,
Carlos
I must say that I was not impressed with the lack of urgency that I received from some of your employees in the beginning of this process. Vinny has saved this deal for you guys in my book. Please pass on to your people that when you drop $5,000+ on a couple of orders, you expect to receive calls back in a timely manner. Thanks for showing up and I trust that you will pass this info along.
Regards,
Carlos
01-16-2009, 05:59 PM
#273
Dave,
I must say that I was not impressed with the lack of urgency that I received from some of your employees in the beginning of this process. Vinny has saved this deal for you guys in my book. Please pass on to your people that when you drop $5,000+ on a couple of orders, you expect to receive calls back in a timely manner. Thanks for showing up and I trust that you will pass this info along.
Regards,
Carlos
I must say that I was not impressed with the lack of urgency that I received from some of your employees in the beginning of this process. Vinny has saved this deal for you guys in my book. Please pass on to your people that when you drop $5,000+ on a couple of orders, you expect to receive calls back in a timely manner. Thanks for showing up and I trust that you will pass this info along.
Regards,
Carlos
I appreciate the feed back. We were running on a portion of our normal staff through the month of december. So yes we may have been alittle slow on getting things taken care of and making phone calls back. There is only so much half staff can do expecially when all the cards of the holiday are working against you.
Correct me if I am wrong here.
I do know as far as your order your intake was originally ordered from Steven for him. The black Earls fittings he ordered were something we did not have in stock and had to get from Holley. He was told at the very beginning about this. We ordered those fittings the day he placed his order. Unfortintly getting Holley to get things out has been a real pain for the last few months. I do not know what is going on over there but its not helping there dealers out real well.
I may be wrong here but I think the comunication break down was between you and Steven since he sold you his intake to get the one with a directport on it. He was aware those fittings were special ordered and that we were waiting on them to arrive from Holley.
Our dealings were with Steven and not you. When you came into the picture it actually kind of became quite confusing to us since Steven was the one that placed the orders and who we talked to.
Now I am not saying my guys are perfect and that they handle everything perfectly because I know we make mistakes. I was out of town the entire month of december for the pri Show and then Christmas in Idaho. However Vinny and I were on the phone with each other and when your intake came into play it took me 3 or 4 phone calls just to figure out what was going on and who you were.
Please take those factors into concideration.
If there is a problem I am not aware of please bring that problem to my attention so I can handle it.
You are correct Vinny has done an absolute beautiful job handling this.
Again Thank you for being such a stand up guy.
Dave
01-16-2009, 09:17 PM
#274
Dave,
I don't want this to degenerate into a pissing contest but the intake was ordered by Steve and shipped to Steve. Nothing ever changed on your end. When Steve ordered it he said that he wanted it complete and cost was never a factor. The intake arrived without rails or fittings on the Friday before Christmas. I was at Steve's shop when we unpacked it. I contacted Vinny immediately via PM (at that time I thought he was an employee of yours) and he promptly replied stating that he had spoken to Chris and that I would receive a phone call within the hour. 4 hours later I called and was put on hold for 5 minutes. Then the guy that put me on hold told me that Chris needed to call me back. I asked to hold as I had been waiting for a call back for 4 hours. Literally 15 minutes later the same guy gets back on the phone and tells me that there was a problem with getting the AN fittings from Holley. Monday at 4:30 PM Steve get's a call from Chris telling him that you still don't have the fittings. I called back and asked if you had them in another color and viola, they were available. I said ship'em.
Dave, you know that Holley is not the only company that has black AN fittings. In the month between the time that the intake was ordered/paid for and the time that we took delivery, you guys could have found black fittings somewhere or someone could have called him or I and explained the problems you guys had with getting the fittings and we could have made an informed decision. I don't mean to sound like a dick here as I have been very professional and understanding about this entire fiasco but you guys being understaffed is not my problem. I was simply informing you as the owner of what took place. What you do with this information is up to you as the business owner.
I don't want this to degenerate into a pissing contest but the intake was ordered by Steve and shipped to Steve. Nothing ever changed on your end. When Steve ordered it he said that he wanted it complete and cost was never a factor. The intake arrived without rails or fittings on the Friday before Christmas. I was at Steve's shop when we unpacked it. I contacted Vinny immediately via PM (at that time I thought he was an employee of yours) and he promptly replied stating that he had spoken to Chris and that I would receive a phone call within the hour. 4 hours later I called and was put on hold for 5 minutes. Then the guy that put me on hold told me that Chris needed to call me back. I asked to hold as I had been waiting for a call back for 4 hours. Literally 15 minutes later the same guy gets back on the phone and tells me that there was a problem with getting the AN fittings from Holley. Monday at 4:30 PM Steve get's a call from Chris telling him that you still don't have the fittings. I called back and asked if you had them in another color and viola, they were available. I said ship'em.
Dave, you know that Holley is not the only company that has black AN fittings. In the month between the time that the intake was ordered/paid for and the time that we took delivery, you guys could have found black fittings somewhere or someone could have called him or I and explained the problems you guys had with getting the fittings and we could have made an informed decision. I don't mean to sound like a dick here as I have been very professional and understanding about this entire fiasco but you guys being understaffed is not my problem. I was simply informing you as the owner of what took place. What you do with this information is up to you as the business owner.
01-18-2009, 07:06 AM
#278
Here's a couple of videos from Jan 14th w/ the FAST on the car. Haven't located the video of the 10.35 pass yet but I hear that someone may have gotten it. I'll post it when and if I can locate it.
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/i...GOODLOSLS2.flv
Here is from the previous week with the Fiber Tuned on the car. I did manage a 10.84 that also didn't make it on to video. The car actually JUST pushes thru the t-brake which tripped the beams and reported a hair slower time than what it should have been. Probably another 10.8 pass. Disregard the intro. I told him he was on notice because it was taking him so long to get the video up in our local forum (Need2speed).
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/i...nt=Movie-1.flv
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/i...GOODLOSLS2.flv
Here is from the previous week with the Fiber Tuned on the car. I did manage a 10.84 that also didn't make it on to video. The car actually JUST pushes thru the t-brake which tripped the beams and reported a hair slower time than what it should have been. Probably another 10.8 pass. Disregard the intro. I told him he was on notice because it was taking him so long to get the video up in our local forum (Need2speed).
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/i...nt=Movie-1.flv
01-19-2009, 09:22 AM
#279
Dave,
I don't want this to degenerate into a pissing contest but the intake was ordered by Steve and shipped to Steve. Nothing ever changed on your end. When Steve ordered it he said that he wanted it complete and cost was never a factor. The intake arrived without rails or fittings on the Friday before Christmas. I was at Steve's shop when we unpacked it. I contacted Vinny immediately via PM (at that time I thought he was an employee of yours) and he promptly replied stating that he had spoken to Chris and that I would receive a phone call within the hour. 4 hours later I called and was put on hold for 5 minutes. Then the guy that put me on hold told me that Chris needed to call me back. I asked to hold as I had been waiting for a call back for 4 hours. Literally 15 minutes later the same guy gets back on the phone and tells me that there was a problem with getting the AN fittings from Holley. Monday at 4:30 PM Steve get's a call from Chris telling him that you still don't have the fittings. I called back and asked if you had them in another color and viola, they were available. I said ship'em.
Dave, you know that Holley is not the only company that has black AN fittings. In the month between the time that the intake was ordered/paid for and the time that we took delivery, you guys could have found black fittings somewhere or someone could have called him or I and explained the problems you guys had with getting the fittings and we could have made an informed decision. I don't mean to sound like a dick here as I have been very professional and understanding about this entire fiasco but you guys being understaffed is not my problem. I was simply informing you as the owner of what took place. What you do with this information is up to you as the business owner.
I don't want this to degenerate into a pissing contest but the intake was ordered by Steve and shipped to Steve. Nothing ever changed on your end. When Steve ordered it he said that he wanted it complete and cost was never a factor. The intake arrived without rails or fittings on the Friday before Christmas. I was at Steve's shop when we unpacked it. I contacted Vinny immediately via PM (at that time I thought he was an employee of yours) and he promptly replied stating that he had spoken to Chris and that I would receive a phone call within the hour. 4 hours later I called and was put on hold for 5 minutes. Then the guy that put me on hold told me that Chris needed to call me back. I asked to hold as I had been waiting for a call back for 4 hours. Literally 15 minutes later the same guy gets back on the phone and tells me that there was a problem with getting the AN fittings from Holley. Monday at 4:30 PM Steve get's a call from Chris telling him that you still don't have the fittings. I called back and asked if you had them in another color and viola, they were available. I said ship'em.
Dave, you know that Holley is not the only company that has black AN fittings. In the month between the time that the intake was ordered/paid for and the time that we took delivery, you guys could have found black fittings somewhere or someone could have called him or I and explained the problems you guys had with getting the fittings and we could have made an informed decision. I don't mean to sound like a dick here as I have been very professional and understanding about this entire fiasco but you guys being understaffed is not my problem. I was simply informing you as the owner of what took place. What you do with this information is up to you as the business owner.
I have No ill feelings here. I apreciate the feed back. I am not on the defensive. If we made a mistake I need the feed back to make sure it does not happen again. So please do not feel like I am making up excuses or discrediting anything you are saying.
I talked to Chris this morning. I could not ask him about this last week because he was out with knee surgery. According to Chris when this intake was ordered the fittings were not instock. He ordered the fittings from the only company we deal with that had the fittings in Black. Ofcourse Holley did not tell us they were on back order. My guys should have followed up on the order making sure we had everything in stock by the time Vinny was done with the intake. They did not. I will address and resolve that issue to make sure it does not happen again. So truth is it sounds like Steven was not told about the fittings being on back order until he called checking on his order.
As for us being on half staff. That is pretty common for most manufactures while displaying at PRI. Being a small company it is hard to be at both places. Then when Christmas time hits people take off to see family. I know this is not the customers problem. I was just explaining why we were at half staff. For this reason getting Chris on the phone may have been difficult. There were only 3 people working phones and some times you are from one phone call to another with out ever laying the phone down. Some of these calls can be very lenghty keeping you on the phone for well over an hour. I am telling you this because I do not want you to feel like you were being put on the back burner or ignored.
I do applogize for my guys fumbling the ball on the fittings. We will be having a meeting here this morning and I will be dealing with this.
Again Thank you for being understanding.
Dave