the best heads for a 440
09-11-2012, 09:56 AM
#22
Anything ls7 with a cam is faster than 90 percent of the cathedral port NA stuff out there. Anything remotely serious is 140 or more in a decent chassis.. And 600+rwhp. Some even stock shortblock.. Not so easy with the old school cathedral stuff.
SAMs car is a bad bitch for being NA and they use c5r stuff which would still be considered square port? Pretty much Anyone building a serious street motor now uses the square port stuff.
If your going solid roller race car stuff, then it might not be the best option. But that's because of the valve train issues with solid stuff.
Intake to exhaust isn't everything. Fords old 4.6 stuff had some seriously badass intake to exhaust ratio and they were **** for NA.
SAMs car is a bad bitch for being NA and they use c5r stuff which would still be considered square port? Pretty much Anyone building a serious street motor now uses the square port stuff.
If your going solid roller race car stuff, then it might not be the best option. But that's because of the valve train issues with solid stuff.
Intake to exhaust isn't everything. Fords old 4.6 stuff had some seriously badass intake to exhaust ratio and they were **** for NA.
09-11-2012, 10:32 AM
#23
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Anything ls7 with a cam is faster than 90 percent of the cathedral port NA stuff out there. Anything remotely serious is 140 or more in a decent chassis.. And 600+rwhp. Some even stock shortblock.. Not so easy with the old school cathedral stuff.
SAMs car is a bad bitch for being NA and they use c5r stuff which would still be considered square port? Pretty much Anyone building a serious street motor now uses the square port stuff.
If your going solid roller race car stuff, then it might not be the best option. But that's because of the valve train issues with solid stuff.
Intake to exhaust isn't everything. Fords old 4.6 stuff had some seriously badass intake to exhaust ratio and they were **** for NA.
SAMs car is a bad bitch for being NA and they use c5r stuff which would still be considered square port? Pretty much Anyone building a serious street motor now uses the square port stuff.
If your going solid roller race car stuff, then it might not be the best option. But that's because of the valve train issues with solid stuff.
Intake to exhaust isn't everything. Fords old 4.6 stuff had some seriously badass intake to exhaust ratio and they were **** for NA.
09-11-2012, 11:12 AM
#24
Fords old 4.6 stuff didn't make great NA power in anyone's hands.
And the fastest guys in the world with cath stuff are boosted.
A lot of the 8 second guys NA using square port stuff.
The hutter Gto. Uses all pros
Sam uses the c5r
Lashley used c5r
Everyone else in the 8s probably uses Mozez or canted valve heads from somewhere else. Who in the 8s uses cathedral stuff? Honeycutt? One car? Maybe one more? Did that Rodney something have a 8 second car that was similar to tooley top end?
I bet even most low 9 second NA cars aren't ping to be using cathedral stuff.
And the fastest guys in the world with cath stuff are boosted.
A lot of the 8 second guys NA using square port stuff.
The hutter Gto. Uses all pros
Sam uses the c5r
Lashley used c5r
Everyone else in the 8s probably uses Mozez or canted valve heads from somewhere else. Who in the 8s uses cathedral stuff? Honeycutt? One car? Maybe one more? Did that Rodney something have a 8 second car that was similar to tooley top end?
I bet even most low 9 second NA cars aren't ping to be using cathedral stuff.
09-11-2012, 12:40 PM
#25
Fords old 4.6 stuff didn't make great NA power in anyone's hands.
And the fastest guys in the world with cath stuff are boosted.
A lot of the 8 second guys NA using square port stuff.
The hutter Gto. Uses all pros
Sam uses the c5r
Lashley used c5r
Everyone else in the 8s probably uses Mozez or canted valve heads from somewhere else. Who in the 8s uses cathedral stuff? Honeycutt? One car? Maybe one more? Did that Rodney something have a 8 second car that was similar to tooley top end?
I bet even most low 9 second NA cars aren't ping to be using cathedral stuff.
And the fastest guys in the world with cath stuff are boosted.
A lot of the 8 second guys NA using square port stuff.
The hutter Gto. Uses all pros
Sam uses the c5r
Lashley used c5r
Everyone else in the 8s probably uses Mozez or canted valve heads from somewhere else. Who in the 8s uses cathedral stuff? Honeycutt? One car? Maybe one more? Did that Rodney something have a 8 second car that was similar to tooley top end?
I bet even most low 9 second NA cars aren't ping to be using cathedral stuff.
It's been proven time and time again that they will make the same amount of power and I/E is way more important than just intake flow, and don't use the 4.6 arguement as it holds no merit in this conversation. It's an insanely smaller bore with insanely smaller ports that are going to flow like crap because of that. A 245cc TFS will flow 360cfm+ and 290cfm+ with the 265's breaking 390-400cfm+ and over 300cfm on the exhaust in the right hands and it doesn't take much.
Find me a square port head that can touch both of those numbers.
09-11-2012, 03:08 PM
#26
Why you talking flow numbers? I was talking about track passes? Are there more cath port or square port heads in the 8s NA?
Answer that. Then come back as tell me why.
Answer that. Then come back as tell me why.
09-11-2012, 06:19 PM
#27
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thats pretty good out of a 2.100 valve. 115 cfm/sq inch. pretty good for a wedge head! Does have a 55 degree vj tho i bet...who did the work?
only cathedral port head from what i have seen thats impressive is honeycutts...naturally aspirated. boosted setups will not make a huge difference in cathedral vs square port especially for what alot of these guys are doing. imo once u start getting into 98+mm turbos and f1r/x/f2 does the top end become more of a factor.
only cathedral port head from what i have seen thats impressive is honeycutts...naturally aspirated. boosted setups will not make a huge difference in cathedral vs square port especially for what alot of these guys are doing. imo once u start getting into 98+mm turbos and f1r/x/f2 does the top end become more of a factor.
09-12-2012, 01:38 AM
#28
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Fords old 4.6 stuff didn't make great NA power in anyone's hands.
And the fastest guys in the world with cath stuff are boosted.
A lot of the 8 second guys NA using square port stuff.
The hutter Gto. Uses all pros
Sam uses the c5r
Lashley used c5r
Everyone else in the 8s probably uses Mozez or canted valve heads from somewhere else. Who in the 8s uses cathedral stuff? Honeycutt? One car? Maybe one more? Did that Rodney something have a 8 second car that was similar to tooley top end?
I bet even most low 9 second NA cars aren't ping to be using cathedral stuff.
And the fastest guys in the world with cath stuff are boosted.
A lot of the 8 second guys NA using square port stuff.
The hutter Gto. Uses all pros
Sam uses the c5r
Lashley used c5r
Everyone else in the 8s probably uses Mozez or canted valve heads from somewhere else. Who in the 8s uses cathedral stuff? Honeycutt? One car? Maybe one more? Did that Rodney something have a 8 second car that was similar to tooley top end?
I bet even most low 9 second NA cars aren't ping to be using cathedral stuff.
09-12-2012, 07:40 AM
#29
How did you get 11.7:1 compression in a 4v?
I have built a couple of 4.6 That's the major problem with 4v is their lack of compression and compression options. 10:1 with flat tops? And who makes a domed pistons..
And yeah 430rwhp NA is not impressive
I have built a couple of 4.6 That's the major problem with 4v is their lack of compression and compression options. 10:1 with flat tops? And who makes a domed pistons..
And yeah 430rwhp NA is not impressive
09-12-2012, 09:08 AM
#31
You keep thinking that, I'll stick with my TFS and AFR's and keep kicking the square port stuff in the teeth.
It's been proven time and time again that they will make the same amount of power and I/E is way more important than just intake flow, and don't use the 4.6 arguement as it holds no merit in this conversation. It's an insanely smaller bore with insanely smaller ports that are going to flow like crap because of that. A 245cc TFS will flow 360cfm+ and 290cfm+ with the 265's breaking 390-400cfm+ and over 300cfm on the exhaust in the right hands and it doesn't take much.
Find me a square port head that can touch both of those numbers.
It's been proven time and time again that they will make the same amount of power and I/E is way more important than just intake flow, and don't use the 4.6 arguement as it holds no merit in this conversation. It's an insanely smaller bore with insanely smaller ports that are going to flow like crap because of that. A 245cc TFS will flow 360cfm+ and 290cfm+ with the 265's breaking 390-400cfm+ and over 300cfm on the exhaust in the right hands and it doesn't take much.
Find me a square port head that can touch both of those numbers.
Maybe he knows some thing that many experts don't??
09-12-2012, 12:41 PM
#33
Trust me I had been looking into some single plane and square port stuff and was asking around (i'm a trickflow guy) and everyone pretty much agreed unless your going aftermarket ls7 casting to stay catherdral.
Even with a strong flowing aftermartket ls7 head like a PRC or MAST the power band is not going to be as strong as a nice pair of cathedral port heads. This is important for a street car.
And this is from people that haven't melted pistons using too hot plugs.
LMAO Martin I had forgotten about that thread until now, I didn't realize this was the same guy
Last edited by My6speedZ; 09-12-2012 at 12:54 PM.
09-12-2012, 01:11 PM
#34
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I was which is better 225 TFS or LS7 GM casting. IF those are your only heads to work with the LS7 would clearly be the better choice
09-12-2012, 01:21 PM
#35
He said he was "considering" these heads typically in my experiences this means that they are just looking around at heads.
When someone is forced to pick between two especially when one is not really a normal choice they give reason ie. i already have them, i got a good deal on, blah blah.
If you opened the chambers to fit that bore I bet they would do better than you expect. Lots of guys making nice numbers with small runner cathedral stuff on larger bores. Great make to make nice average power.
When someone is forced to pick between two especially when one is not really a normal choice they give reason ie. i already have them, i got a good deal on, blah blah.
If you opened the chambers to fit that bore I bet they would do better than you expect. Lots of guys making nice numbers with small runner cathedral stuff on larger bores. Great make to make nice average power.
09-12-2012, 01:33 PM
#36
My smoke blower is broken if that makes you feel any better.
If you want to know what the best heads for a 440 are find out yourself the hard way like everyone that came before us did instead of having a great place to discuss topics like this and actually hear both sides of the coin like you can here on LS1Tech.
09-12-2012, 02:21 PM
#37
I own a square port motor that makes 530 lb of torque. And Barely needs to be reved to 6k to make power. Where does all this ls7 and ls3 doesn't make torque come from?
Are you people regurgitating info? Or have you put together combos and are speaking from experience. Anyone else want to comepare dyno sheets with me?
Are you people regurgitating info? Or have you put together combos and are speaking from experience. Anyone else want to comepare dyno sheets with me?
09-12-2012, 02:44 PM
#38
Seems like this combo has been going on for years. And again it's the opinions and theories of guys that have done it. Against someone who has actually put some **** together.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=957715&page=2
Seems like he does mention more torque in a cath port motor. But the ls3 examples are still making 485 and 470 torque in a stock stroke motor. Doesn't seem too torque less to me?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=957715&page=2
Seems like he does mention more torque in a cath port motor. But the ls3 examples are still making 485 and 470 torque in a stock stroke motor. Doesn't seem too torque less to me?
09-12-2012, 03:54 PM
#39
All I'm telling you is what I was shown from people that do this **** all the time and were trying to help me not waste my money. Not a sponsor trying to tell me something to take it.
Get what I'm saying? I'm talking about people that regularly pull down numbers faster then I will ever go.
When these guys talk, I listen. They clearly know more than I ever will. When all of them but two tell me to keep my Trickflows over going square port I think that speaks pretty clearly.
You can look long enough and hard enough to find a dyno graph to agree with anything you say.
From the two listed I (and most people judging from this thread) wouldn't pick either for a 440, that's what we believe and trying to make us feel stupid for suggesting AFR's or Trickflow's is not going to make us change our minds either so get over it and move on.
Half the time when we get to discussing heads we are comparing flow numbers that
A: either take place at lifts outside what our engine will actually see just to try and "win" the argument or
B: don't even matter because we can only flow so much through our intake
Best thing to do is use them to get as idea of what the head is able to do in a nutshell, pick one and get the rest of your engine efficient enough to make me the most of them. Intake/exhaust efficiency, weight, gear ratio, valve timing, tire sizing, power adder,chassis, suspension... so much more goes into making a fast combo that just what heads to get.
Get what I'm saying? I'm talking about people that regularly pull down numbers faster then I will ever go.
When these guys talk, I listen. They clearly know more than I ever will. When all of them but two tell me to keep my Trickflows over going square port I think that speaks pretty clearly.
You can look long enough and hard enough to find a dyno graph to agree with anything you say.
From the two listed I (and most people judging from this thread) wouldn't pick either for a 440, that's what we believe and trying to make us feel stupid for suggesting AFR's or Trickflow's is not going to make us change our minds either so get over it and move on.
Half the time when we get to discussing heads we are comparing flow numbers that
A: either take place at lifts outside what our engine will actually see just to try and "win" the argument or
B: don't even matter because we can only flow so much through our intake
Best thing to do is use them to get as idea of what the head is able to do in a nutshell, pick one and get the rest of your engine efficient enough to make me the most of them. Intake/exhaust efficiency, weight, gear ratio, valve timing, tire sizing, power adder,chassis, suspension... so much more goes into making a fast combo that just what heads to get.
09-12-2012, 04:26 PM
#40
All I'm telling you is what I was shown from people that do this **** all the time and were trying to help me not waste my money. Not a sponsor trying to tell me something to take it.
Get what I'm saying? I'm talking about people that regularly pull down numbers faster then I will ever go.
When these guys talk, I listen. They clearly know more than I ever will. When all of them but two tell me to keep my Trickflows over going square port I think that speaks pretty clearly.
You can look long enough and hard enough to find a dyno graph to agree with anything you say.
From the two listed I (and most people judging from this thread) wouldn't pick either for a 440, that's what we believe and trying to make us feel stupid for suggesting AFR's or Trickflow's is not going to make us change our minds either so get over it and move on.
Half the time when we get to discussing heads we are comparing flow numbers that
A: either take place at lifts outside what our engine will actually see just to try and "win" the argument or
B: don't even matter because we can only flow so much through our intake
Best thing to do is use them to get as idea of what the head is able to do in a nutshell, pick one and get the rest of your engine efficient enough to make me the most of them. Intake/exhaust efficiency, weight, gear ratio, valve timing, tire sizing, power adder,chassis, suspension... so much more goes into making a fast combo that just what heads to get.
Get what I'm saying? I'm talking about people that regularly pull down numbers faster then I will ever go.
When these guys talk, I listen. They clearly know more than I ever will. When all of them but two tell me to keep my Trickflows over going square port I think that speaks pretty clearly.
You can look long enough and hard enough to find a dyno graph to agree with anything you say.
From the two listed I (and most people judging from this thread) wouldn't pick either for a 440, that's what we believe and trying to make us feel stupid for suggesting AFR's or Trickflow's is not going to make us change our minds either so get over it and move on.
Half the time when we get to discussing heads we are comparing flow numbers that
A: either take place at lifts outside what our engine will actually see just to try and "win" the argument or
B: don't even matter because we can only flow so much through our intake
Best thing to do is use them to get as idea of what the head is able to do in a nutshell, pick one and get the rest of your engine efficient enough to make me the most of them. Intake/exhaust efficiency, weight, gear ratio, valve timing, tire sizing, power adder,chassis, suspension... so much more goes into making a fast combo that just what heads to get.