87silverbullet

iTrader: (11)

I've learned to not try to tell people who think that flow numbers are everything, anything at all because all it does is make your head hurt

87silverbullet

iTrader: (11)

Man, you were a cool dude in my book but now you want to start with that "marked" ****. Your *** couldn't mark something if I gave you a marksalot marker. People on here that have been there and done that are trying to keep you from making a costly mistake and you want to bite them like a pitbull on a t-bone steak.

So as I see it go mark your motor because with the combo of parts and your thinking process, it's not going to make any better average numbers as a cathedral headed 408 with a FAST.

lil john

I try to live by the Golden Rule....Although some of my friends are Houstone and BGD's members.......Does that make me a bad guy...Well?

it's this simple and I know engine Dynamic's you have a TFS 245 or AFR 245 with a 13 or 15 degree head.... I have 240cc of 11 degree heads... I out flow you in all aspects and the runner is in the same ball park 240 ish we must be using the same cam from the test with your heads...you have to taylor game your cam to match heads this is the same thing WKMCD must have went thru trying to prove his Theory about the L92's.....I understand what is being said....rectangle ports are Lazy...Y bigger ports not because of the 11-12* degree architecture we got you in that dept. so now runner size...we no longer have slow ports....with large intake runners we are now available in smaller sizes to help that problem of not having better Mid lift #'s and still can be gotten in larger runner sizes for All out applications.

lil john

So LME is wrong. BTW: 700hp So it's not going to make any better average numbers as a cathedral headed 408 with a FAST.

lil john

This same guy gets on another thread with ***** and masturbating jokes towards me ......I don't no about U we don't play like that around here....He likes to kick up a little dust so.....What was said holds true........He ran and told it...... you can take his side who cares we talking about heads not Marks....87 you cool..... but he knows what going on....He knows what I'm building better than me and LME. He has never tried to see it from my point of view...although I have tried to see it from his perception....Bump that....I don't need him...

speedtigger

iTrader: (16)

I disagree. To me the main thing wrong with this test is the intake manifolds. For a motor this large with a cam shaft this size or larger, it should have an intake manifold with shorter runners.

When the demand is this high at higher RPM the length of the runner becomes a restriction. It restricts the access to the large volume of air in the plenum.

I would love to see this test again with a good Mast single plane intake and the corresponding camshafts.

Oh, and lil john, please keep your posts short. When they get more than a sentence or two (if you can call them sentences) I start to get a headache. Just sayin' not hatin'.

lil john

Got U i'll try, ....Your right, Fast intake is perfect for a head that flow to 350 and couple that with a smaller runner head....The same test with a 660 to 675 lift cam and a Mast intake.......
Think Rectangle port would lose then? If your limited by hood space then your limited on HP...Fast can make 800hp by what means 500ci engine that's how.They make a great combo...But.....you limit your heads if they flow above 350 and don't forget RPM. I really don't need a lot of TQ below 4000rpms to much and the tires break loose...Ever no of any one who at the track car would not hook up I've seen a cam change take care of this by moving the TQ up in the RPM band and helping out the top end....Some want TQ while others want HP.....570tq at 5000 is cool with me...
We now have 240 cc ports LS7 heads that just make a mockery of a Cathedral while being tested with of all things
a 3.900 bore.... while most Cathedral 235/245's heads use a test bore of 4.125 or large...What type of worm hole is this.This must be like superman alter ego bizzaro world, to think that this old stereo type still works, big lazy rectangle ports...we on the same playing field as far as runner size add in technology 11 degree valve angle

lil john

You may have tried to help....But to the point I don't dis like u it's the way u came at me so I can return the favor.

I have tired to help you on several occasions from looking ignorant. If you don't know what your talking about you need to do more listening and less typing or talking.Thanks

You were going to try to run E85 in Houston on a 13.1 motor for a street car:
-I sent you a list of all of the E85 stations in the Houston area and told you to watch the fuel quality and locations.Thanks

You asked if 700BHP was possible with a 408 NA:
-I told you it would be easier and cheaper in the long run with more cubes like a 434 ,440,454. Nope we did that with a 408

You went out and bought a cam before you even new what heads you were going to run: Yeah and I still have L92's that the cam was meant for...Also it would work great with a better set of heads Mast 240's but thanks anyway.LME/Tick said so go and tell them this that this cam won't do what I'm asking for.

-I told you that was a bad idea, get the heads first then order your to be taylored arounf your head characteristics.Thanks but money spent

You keep posting how this head is better than the other based on flow:
-I told you don't just go by flow or magazine shootouts as it is more to it.Well that's wear the HP is....That's a good subject

Well I do KNOW good parts from crap Like my EZ roller lifters that won't be placing needle bearings all over the place.

-I told you to build the motor first, get some experience then give advice.I've built over 8 engine what else do U want me to learn they all have 4 strokes.

Nobody is hating on your childish ***. you are over thirty still acting like its 1995. Man grow up, we off that, we put our flags in the drawer back in the 90's.
No kids here.....I hope this helps you....

lil john

If mags Lie y is it that Mast heads are the best or am I wrong about that also.....Do like Heinz 57......Ketchup up..... I've learned the ls engine it just a better means of HP for a 4 stroke engine....Y because of heads and a PCM!

lil john

I do KNOW this, that this conversation although we have beaten a dead horse, a lot of people still love this subject....WE doing something right.... You have Die hard Cathedral fans as well as Rectangle port configuration.....As long as you.. get what you want ...We are all apart of the same Community ....Chevy LS, we may not all ways get along but who does.....I'm thinking of another topic that will start a conversation that got this many hits this FAST....LOL.

Grr

iTrader: (2)

Well no ****, if one has a ls1 intake and the other a tunnel ram gee I wonder what will make more power
Both used the best breadbox intake available, that's just the way it is and the numbers are what they are. If both heads are set up with big single planes or hi rams the test would still lay out in a similar fashion, with a couple more hp between the two. There would not be a 20+hp shift to one or the other though.


To the OP, funny how you are so stuck on flow this and that and a fast intake is so bad, the square port victor jr is no gem, it need so much work to be effective its rediculous. You had better get a 4500 single plane or a Holley on there or you will be crutching it just how you are making fun of others for doing

KCS

iTrader: (20)

Yeah, he went to UTI and has "helped build" 8 engines. Tech Guru!

lil john

I kind of figured out to port intake but I really don't have to....500 bucks to do this procedure..... still cheaper than Mast intake and it will provide more than enough for ....700hp or rather over 700 lift...I'm just check to see that you have the facts right.....Also this fit's under my hood .. as opposed to Mast which I think is too tall...I'm just saying...Fast is a great intake but ....but it won't reach the full potential of any head over ....350 that's a # and a FACT... I'm jumping in the Solid roller ...over .700 lift and 7300rpm sandlot...no need for Fast now

you stated:
If both heads are set up with big single planes or hi rams the test would still lay out in a similar fashion, with a couple more hp between the two. There would not be a 20+hp shift to one or the other though. (How much you wanna bet... lets get over .700 lift and a Solid roller, like myself and let's get some RPM) did you say 20+ there's just better potential, just because of architecture and head Lay out.I do like #'s but I also have common sense to know that a 240cc port that out flow a head with the basic Port size other than one being rectangular and the other a cathedral is a good head....and the same #'s are better with a smaller test bore....I'm not making fun of any1.... I'm not on trial.. I stated that I like rectangular ports and I'm showing you from a technical aspect ....I also plan to show you Proven #'s by what I already stated.....Mast heads are proven winners and I have a 240 port that will match my engine size with larger valves 2.160's and flow to over .700.. I Know how heads work I got a hell of a lot of velocity with this combo.
I'll leave you with this Technical info that you may have not known...Well I do:

the obvious difference to create a smaller runner, 12 degree valve angle to accommodate smaller valves...A short turn radius,raised floor and short turn area
This separates it from a cathedral style head...This helps flow by getting air and fuel around the valve more effectively...

lil john

Lots of knowledgeable tech and yrs. of R/R

lil john

Some of these guy's give me a hard time but it's cool Fact's are Fact's someone stated earlier about do I know how heads work..Well yes I do and I need no corny hype man either...The heads I stated I'm getting are already great out of the box...Fact...So here's why some of the little things like me getting bigger valves and other work that will be done will help me... Ricky McConathy of Slick-Rick heads will help get me there with some of these same tricks.

Beneath that stern, intimidating glare and impressive stature is a man with few equals in the realm of cylinder head expertise. There are probably a few people who know more about cylinder heads than Judson Massingill, but since none of them are willing to talk, their existence is inconsequential. That's not exactly PC, but maybe it's just Judson's 100-percent B.S.-free demeanor rubbing off on us. If you want answers, this straight-shooting Texan will give 'em to you in pure, unadulterated, and unfiltered form. Best of all, he's usually right.

Throat Diameter
A critical aspect of maximizing cylinder head flow is establishing the proper throat diameter. Going too big or too small can seriously impede airflow, but getting it right is pretty clear cut. "The rule of thumb is that the throat diameter should be roughly 90 percent of the valve diameter," says Judson. On race valve jobs, since the seats are moved farther down near the valve, the guidelines change slightly depending on the specific valve seat angle. With a 45-degree valve seat, the throat diameter should be 0.200 inch smaller than the valve, and with a 50-degree seat, it should be 0.180 inch smaller. Stepping up to a 55-degree seat requires a throat diameter 0.160 inch smaller than the valve.

Angle-Milling Heads For Power
Angle-milling cylinder heads is always beneficial to airflow. "Removing more deck material off of the exhaust side than the intake side reduces the combustion chambers, raises the runners, and helps deshroud the valves by moving them closer to the center of the combustion chamber," says Judson. It also allows more material to be milled before hitting the valve seats. However, there is a practical limit to how much a head can be angle-milled. Rolling over a 23-degree head to an 18-degree valve angle just isn't practical or feasible. On a small-block, "Cutting 0.017 inch off of the exhaust side per inch of cylinder head width reduces the valve angle by one degree, and 1.5 to 2 degrees is the absolute max," Judson says. "If you get the chambers and seats optimized to go along with an angle-mill, the procedure can net a solid 15-cfm increase in a head that flows 300 cfm." The only downside is that the minute change in geometry that results from angle-milling may require some creative installation when fitting the intake manifold and headers.

Swirl
One of the more controversial areas of cylinder head theory is swirl, but it's a concept that packs more hype than substance. Swirl proponents say it contributes to a more homogenized air/fuel mixture, which eliminates lean pockets and reduces the potential of detonation. However, Judson isn't too convinced of its merits. "Experts can't even agree on how to accurately measure swirl, and every device that measures swirl affects it somehow," he says. "Promoting swirl adversely affects inertia and flow. While it may help with gas mileage, emissions, and to some degree power, optimizing quench is a much more effective method of homogenizing the air/fuel mixture without the adverse effects in airflow associated with swirl." In other words, quench trumps swirl every day of the week.


Working Runners Vs. Working Bowls
On production cylinder heads, the bowls require much more attention than the runners. "The average backyard hack needs to stay away from the port, gasket-matching it at most, and work on the bowl", says Judson. "It's hard to mess up the bowls, and using common sense will improve airflow. The goal is to create a nice transition from the bowl into the valve job." However, just the opposite is true with a quality aftermarket casting. "If you buy a good aftermarket head, the bowls are already 90 percent there, and the average person is more likely to mess it up than improve it."


Port Velocity & Flow
"I tell my students they'll spend the rest of their careers trying to find the right balance between flow and velocity," Judson says. "A simple way to look at it is if you increase the cross-sectional area of a port and pick up flow, then you haven't hurt velocity. On the other hand, if you open up a port and don't pick up flow, you've hurt velocity. It's a delicate balancing act, and air velocity is not uniform throughout a port. There's the average velocity and localized velocities, and air moves faster toward the center of the port, where friction from port walls doesn't affect it as much. The trick is mini-mizing the differences between localized velocities. If air moves too fast, it won't want to make the turn at the short-side radius, which makes a big difference between localized velocities in that part of the port and hurts flow. Although there are people who swear by high-velocity ports, it isn't nearly as important in a high-winding motor. The lower the motor's rpm range, the more velocity you need, but you can't make runners big enough if you want to turn high rpm in a race motor."

Reshaping Combustion Chambers
Porters typically don't pay enough attention to the combustion chambers. The basic idea is for the chambers to be an extension of the valve job all the way into the cylinder. Following this principle, with wedge heads, a heart-shaped combustion chamber is ideal. Judson tells us, "If you perform a valve job, you have to work on chambers. The goal is to keep velocity even all around the valve." If the chambers aren't optimized, the penalties can be severe. "On one of our race heads, we cut 1-2 cc of material out of the chambers to get some extra piston clearance for the aluminum rods we were running. Our flow dropped from 410 to 385 cfm. It just goes to show you every little thing on today's heads is so much more critical than on the junk heads we had 15 years ago."

Valve-Seat Angle
"Generally, a valve-seat angle greater than 45 degrees will make more power," says Judson. "There are some trade-offs, though. As the seat angle increases, durability decreases. That's why lower angles are common in many production motors, and just about all diesels have 30-degree seats. With 50-55 degrees you'll lose 10-15 percent of flow from 0.200- to 0.400-inch lift that you can't get back. However, you can't sacrifice high-lift flow for low- and mid-lift flow because that's not where you make power. Some of the top engine-builders in the country don't even turn the flow bench on until 0.300- to 0.400-inch lift. And the improved high-lift flow of bigger angles lets you open up the venturi-at that point the venturi becomes the restriction. You lose a ton of energy when air exits from the port into the cylinder, so a bigger venturi helps maintain that energy. Porting is all about area relationships, and you want to maintain the valve area as the restriction, not the port. In other words, you don't want a weak port with 50- to 55-degree seats. A weak port with a valve seat area that flows well creates lots of turbulence, which hurts flow. The more you know what you're doing, the less you lose down low by going with a higher seat angle."

Short-Side Radius & Power As air moves through the intake port, its naturally tendency is to continue moving forward rather than transition downward toward the valve, which causes turbulence and impedes flow. "What you're trying to do as a porter is stick as much air as possible to the short side to help it make the turn toward the valve," says Judson. "Many times the short side matches the angle of the port roof, and laying it back farther away from perpendicular to the valve guide generally improves flow. The trick is laying the short-side radius back as far as possible without going so far that you hurt flow."


Shaping A Port
Small- and big-block Chevys feature a variety of rectangle, oval, and even cathedral ports, but not all are equal when it comes to airflow. "In terms of cross-sectional area to flow, an oval port is the most efficient because it has no sharp edges," explains Judson. "Air travels in the path of least resistance, and eliminating sharp edges minimizes resistance. If there's enough meat on the head, ports should be oval." Some rectangle ports can be reshaped into ovals by filling in the corners with epoxy. Extending this concept into the intake manifold, runners that taper from the plenum into the port make incoming air less sensitive to the changes in the contours of the port. This effect is more pronounced with longer intake runners, where taper helps out even more. Says Judson: "Air likes consistency, not a lot of changes."

Port Volume
A common method of determining properly sized cylinder heads for a given displacement and rpm range is port volume, but it's not necessarily the most precise method. "Port volume doesn't mean anything," says Judson. "All that matters is cross section, because you have to compare like ports. You can't compare 23-degree heads to 18-degree heads since the longer runners in an 18-degree head means it has more port volume for any given cross section." Generally, port volume is just a substitute for measuring cross section, and the larger the cross section, the higher the rpm the motor must turn. Here's the industry standard formula for determining the proper average cross section of a port: port speed = piston speed x (bore area port average cross section).

KCS

iTrader: (20)

Nice copy and paste.

You bought a nice head and you have knowledgeable people to help you (trust me, you need it), so you might make pretty decent power. Maybe.

However, using a Mast head to make some kind of point that the rectangle ports are better than the cathedral ports is just dumb. The Mast LS3 head is a far cry from what a real LS3 head. Cary fixed just about everything wrong with the LS3 heads in his stuff, its not even an LS3 head anymore. You may as well have bought his Mozez head to prove your point.

DEFYANT

lil john, each head has their place man plain and simple. A head is not all about the flow numbers, if you can't realize that then you just need to read a little more.

Let me ask you a question, I have a 363CID Shortblock, the dimensions are 3.800" Bore and 4.00" Stroke, I will be using a S476 ET-R HO Turbocharger with a 1.58 A/R Housing, it will be a max effort Real Street build, what heads should I run?

leeluther252

iTrader: (17)

You guys are wasting your time. If you look at his posts as a whole, you will immediately know his education level. No matter how much you argue, its never going to click for him. His posts are nothing but him rambling about his engine or trying to look cool. Most of his posts have nothing to do with any topic. The few posts that have any real info are just copied and pasted but even those are ruined by him talking about his motor or him doing some random crap like buying shoes, or driving around. He cant even make complete sentences.

madmike9396

iTrader: (29)

87silverbullet

iTrader: (11)

^^^Yeah but from the typing it doesn't look like he is past the 3rd grade.