Titanium Valves? Mast 305cc vs. PRC 285cc LS7
12-22-2014, 08:05 AM
#41
Like a few others have suggested, talk with Ed at Flowtech Induction. He sells the MAST heads and he can help you with those questions you have. I would suggest the MAST heads over the PRC heads. Many great numbers and ET's with the MAST heads. If money was not a concern, Chris Frank's "Reaper" heads would be what I'd be looking into. I'm sure the pricetag on them is significantly more than even the MAST heads, but possibly talk to Chris about your combination and he may convince you to save a while longer for them.
12-22-2014, 08:32 AM
#42
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Like a few others have suggested, talk with Ed at Flowtech Induction. He sells the MAST heads and he can help you with those questions you have. I would suggest the MAST heads over the PRC heads. Many great numbers and ET's with the MAST heads. If money was not a concern, Chris Frank's "Reaper" heads would be what I'd be looking into. I'm sure the pricetag on them is significantly more than even the MAST heads, but possibly talk to Chris about your combination and he may convince you to save a while longer for them.
I'm going to try and get in touch with Ed this week but it may be difficult due to the holidays.
You all have definitely captured my attention in regard to this Ed guy!
Agree on the Mast heads. Proven performers no doubt.
Chris' stuff looks phenomenal but may be out of the equation as you mention.
Thanks!
12-22-2014, 11:13 AM
#43
FWIW we're dealers for Frankenstein Racing Heads and I have pricing on all of his LS programs.
Chris and I work extremely closely with one another when designing the perfect package for a customer.
EVERYTHING get's looked at.
From piston speed, to port velocity, port area(shape), IO, IC, EO, EC events, valve lift, lobe area etc. etc. etc.
IMO some cylinder head companies market cylinder heads in such a way that appeals to the masses. Some of those things have been mentioned here. Volume being one.
Port area and port velocity are the two main things that are missed when cylinder heads are discussed by enthusiasts. Although I've seen some posts around here lately that seem to show that some guys are catching on, and that's great to see.
How much area the port has and at what velocity that air flows determines airflow through the port. You have a certain sized hole that is flowing a given amount of air, it will have a given amount of velocity. If you flow more air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a faster speed and if you flow less air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a slower speed.
Port velocity is taught to the masses like you can never have enough of it, but that is just not true in EVERY case. Air has mass and like anything that has mass it does not like to turn at high speeds. Thus why the short side radius or the "short turn" in the intake port is one of the most, if not THE most crucial areas to get shaped right in an intake port.
If the air is moving too fast to turn at this point in the cylinder head, port stall and/or turbulence can occur. You'd either have to make the port larger in key areas to slow it down or make the turn more gradual.
A 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm has more demand for airflow than a 3.6" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm. The longer stroke engine will create more velocity in the intake port at the same RPM vs. the shorter stroke engine. Thus why a larger engine with a longer stroke needs more area in the port. A 3.6" stroke engine that turns 8000rpm might end up needing the same area in the port that the 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm needed.
These are the kinds of things a good head porter looks at and these are the kinds of things Chris looks at when we're designing a head/cam combination. The cam goes hand in hand with port speed and area so it all has to be matched for the best results to occur.
Chris and I work extremely closely with one another when designing the perfect package for a customer.
EVERYTHING get's looked at.
From piston speed, to port velocity, port area(shape), IO, IC, EO, EC events, valve lift, lobe area etc. etc. etc.
IMO some cylinder head companies market cylinder heads in such a way that appeals to the masses. Some of those things have been mentioned here. Volume being one.
Port area and port velocity are the two main things that are missed when cylinder heads are discussed by enthusiasts. Although I've seen some posts around here lately that seem to show that some guys are catching on, and that's great to see.
How much area the port has and at what velocity that air flows determines airflow through the port. You have a certain sized hole that is flowing a given amount of air, it will have a given amount of velocity. If you flow more air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a faster speed and if you flow less air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a slower speed.
Port velocity is taught to the masses like you can never have enough of it, but that is just not true in EVERY case. Air has mass and like anything that has mass it does not like to turn at high speeds. Thus why the short side radius or the "short turn" in the intake port is one of the most, if not THE most crucial areas to get shaped right in an intake port.
If the air is moving too fast to turn at this point in the cylinder head, port stall and/or turbulence can occur. You'd either have to make the port larger in key areas to slow it down or make the turn more gradual.
A 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm has more demand for airflow than a 3.6" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm. The longer stroke engine will create more velocity in the intake port at the same RPM vs. the shorter stroke engine. Thus why a larger engine with a longer stroke needs more area in the port. A 3.6" stroke engine that turns 8000rpm might end up needing the same area in the port that the 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm needed.
These are the kinds of things a good head porter looks at and these are the kinds of things Chris looks at when we're designing a head/cam combination. The cam goes hand in hand with port speed and area so it all has to be matched for the best results to occur.
12-22-2014, 01:15 PM
#44
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FWIW we're dealers for Frankenstein Racing Heads and I have pricing on all of his LS programs.
Chris and I work extremely closely with one another when designing the perfect package for a customer.
EVERYTHING get's looked at.
From piston speed, to port velocity, port area(shape), IO, IC, EO, EC events, valve lift, lobe area etc. etc. etc.
Chris and I work extremely closely with one another when designing the perfect package for a customer.
EVERYTHING get's looked at.
From piston speed, to port velocity, port area(shape), IO, IC, EO, EC events, valve lift, lobe area etc. etc. etc.
IMO some cylinder head companies market cylinder heads in such a way that appeals to the masses. Some of those things have been mentioned here. Volume being one.
Port area and port velocity are the two main things that are missed when cylinder heads are discussed by enthusiasts. Although I've seen some posts around here lately that seem to show that some guys are catching on, and that's great to see.
How much area the port has and at what velocity that air flows determines airflow through the port. You have a certain sized hole that is flowing a given amount of air, it will have a given amount of velocity. If you flow more air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a faster speed and if you flow less air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a slower speed.
Port velocity is taught to the masses like you can never have enough of it, but that is just not true in EVERY case. Air has mass and like anything that has mass it does not like to turn at high speeds. Thus why the short side radius or the "short turn" in the intake port is one of the most, if not THE most crucial areas to get shaped right in an intake port.
If the air is moving too fast to turn at this point in the cylinder head, port stall and/or turbulence can occur. You'd either have to make the port larger in key areas to slow it down or make the turn more gradual.
A 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm has more demand for airflow than a 3.6" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm. The longer stroke engine will create more velocity in the intake port at the same RPM vs. the shorter stroke engine. Thus why a larger engine with a longer stroke needs more area in the port. A 3.6" stroke engine that turns 8000rpm might end up needing the same area in the port that the 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm needed.
These are the kinds of things a good head porter looks at and these are the kinds of things Chris looks at when we're designing a head/cam combination. The cam goes hand in hand with port speed and area so it all has to be matched for the best results to occur.
Port area and port velocity are the two main things that are missed when cylinder heads are discussed by enthusiasts. Although I've seen some posts around here lately that seem to show that some guys are catching on, and that's great to see.
How much area the port has and at what velocity that air flows determines airflow through the port. You have a certain sized hole that is flowing a given amount of air, it will have a given amount of velocity. If you flow more air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a faster speed and if you flow less air through that same sized hole, it will flow at a slower speed.
Port velocity is taught to the masses like you can never have enough of it, but that is just not true in EVERY case. Air has mass and like anything that has mass it does not like to turn at high speeds. Thus why the short side radius or the "short turn" in the intake port is one of the most, if not THE most crucial areas to get shaped right in an intake port.
If the air is moving too fast to turn at this point in the cylinder head, port stall and/or turbulence can occur. You'd either have to make the port larger in key areas to slow it down or make the turn more gradual.
A 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm has more demand for airflow than a 3.6" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm. The longer stroke engine will create more velocity in the intake port at the same RPM vs. the shorter stroke engine. Thus why a larger engine with a longer stroke needs more area in the port. A 3.6" stroke engine that turns 8000rpm might end up needing the same area in the port that the 4" stroke engine that turns 7000rpm needed.
These are the kinds of things a good head porter looks at and these are the kinds of things Chris looks at when we're designing a head/cam combination. The cam goes hand in hand with port speed and area so it all has to be matched for the best results to occur.
12-22-2014, 08:11 PM
#45
Because obviously anytime someone spends $2500 on the best they can't possibly be budget minded and can afford anything. 
I had ERL install dry sleeves in my 5.3L truck block that I sourced used through this forum. It was the cheapest way to build a 454ci aluminum small block.
I won't argue this is a poor place to skimp but I have constructed this thread to eradicate the possibility of regret. I want to make an informed decision about valves.
I haven't gotten very much feedback from people with direct experience or any numbers. It's fairly common for people to be willing to spend someone else's money on forums like this. If I didn't care about the cost I would have paid an engine builder to handle everything but I am simultaneously interested in learning about the nuances of my engine as well as not spending a fortune. I appreciate your feedback but "buy the best you won't regret it" doesn't exactly contribute much.
Yes, titanium valves and unicorns are the best case. But what am I losing without them? Power? How much? Accelerated wear? To what extent?
It's not like I'm putting stock truck heads on the car. Mast 305cc and PRC 285cc heads are some of the best options available. I am just trying to determine if $800 intake valves and $880 exhaust valves are really going to be beneficial up to 7500RPM or if I'm leaving meat on the bone.
I had ERL install dry sleeves in my 5.3L truck block that I sourced used through this forum. It was the cheapest way to build a 454ci aluminum small block.
I won't argue this is a poor place to skimp but I have constructed this thread to eradicate the possibility of regret. I want to make an informed decision about valves.
I haven't gotten very much feedback from people with direct experience or any numbers. It's fairly common for people to be willing to spend someone else's money on forums like this. If I didn't care about the cost I would have paid an engine builder to handle everything but I am simultaneously interested in learning about the nuances of my engine as well as not spending a fortune. I appreciate your feedback but "buy the best you won't regret it" doesn't exactly contribute much.
Yes, titanium valves and unicorns are the best case. But what am I losing without them? Power? How much? Accelerated wear? To what extent?
It's not like I'm putting stock truck heads on the car. Mast 305cc and PRC 285cc heads are some of the best options available. I am just trying to determine if $800 intake valves and $880 exhaust valves are really going to be beneficial up to 7500RPM or if I'm leaving meat on the bone.
I simply didn't want you to buy based on price.I can see you're looking for feedback so you're at least open to the idea of spending extra money if needed.
As mentioned Previously the Inconel is for extreme duty cases with High heat such as forced induction.
Titanium is light weight so this would help valve control at High RPM.
Stainless Steel Is the most common for general applications.
I haven't done the research on the specific heads you're looking at, But IMO the stainless valves with a good spring package for your application should be sufficient for what you're trying to accomplish. I believe they will also last longer Vs. an equivalent Titanium valve.
I would suggest speaking directly with someone at each company about your goal and what they have to offer for options.
I would also suggest speaking to someone like martian about your cam and valvetrain package. I am not sure if you know what you're going to run as far as cam specs yet but He may have some specific suggestions on your Valvetrain package. Maybe 1 type of spring and retainer package would be better suited toward your cam and rocker package Vs. an off the shelf offering from a head supplier.
12-22-2014, 08:42 PM
#46
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My statement wasn't to buy the best of the best or over spend. I also wasn't trying to offend you although I am sure my post came off that way. I simply didn't want you to buy based on price.
I can see you're looking for feedback so you're at least open to the idea of spending extra money if needed.
I simply didn't want you to buy based on price.I can see you're looking for feedback so you're at least open to the idea of spending extra money if needed.
As you deduced I'm not opposed to spending what it takes to realize my goals and can extend my desired timeline to accommodate it. I do want hard data before I make my decision and first hand accounts are paramount. I respect the pros and manufacturers and value their opinions but they are also in the business of selling me their product.
Disclosure: I'm an engineer in a family of sales people.
As mentioned Previously the Inconel is for extreme duty cases with High heat such as forced induction.
Titanium is light weight so this would help valve control at High RPM.
Stainless Steel Is the most common for general applications.
I haven't done the research on the specific heads you're looking at, But IMO the stainless valves with a good spring package for your application should be sufficient for what you're trying to accomplish. I believe they will also last longer Vs. an equivalent Titanium valve.
I would suggest speaking directly with someone at each company about your goal and what they have to offer for options.
I would also suggest speaking to someone like martian about your cam and valvetrain package. I am not sure if you know what you're going to run as far as cam specs yet but He may have some specific suggestions on your Valvetrain package. Maybe 1 type of spring and retainer package would be better suited toward your cam and rocker package Vs. an off the shelf offering from a head supplier.
Titanium is light weight so this would help valve control at High RPM.
Stainless Steel Is the most common for general applications.
I haven't done the research on the specific heads you're looking at, But IMO the stainless valves with a good spring package for your application should be sufficient for what you're trying to accomplish. I believe they will also last longer Vs. an equivalent Titanium valve.
I would suggest speaking directly with someone at each company about your goal and what they have to offer for options.
I would also suggest speaking to someone like martian about your cam and valvetrain package. I am not sure if you know what you're going to run as far as cam specs yet but He may have some specific suggestions on your Valvetrain package. Maybe 1 type of spring and retainer package would be better suited toward your cam and rocker package Vs. an off the shelf offering from a head supplier.
The other note here is that I've chosen 7.5k RPM as a compromise of sorts. Fully forged bottom end with Ti intake valves should enable me to roll a bit higher if necessary should I decide to go that route. The Holley Hi-Ram has some serious potential up there from what I've seen.
I'll have to start a build thread early next month when I get the short block assembled.
12-22-2014, 09:00 PM
#47
No worries! The internet is a poor medium for emotion but exceptional for raw information. Likely came across a bit strong myself.
As you deduced I'm not opposed to spending what it takes to realize my goals and can extend my desired timeline to accommodate it. I do want hard data before I make my decision and first hand accounts are paramount. I respect the pros and manufacturers and value their opinions but they are also in the business of selling me their product.
Disclosure: I'm an engineer in a family of sales people.
I have reached out to Martin and he got back to me quickly. His shop is where I plan to have my engine tuned as well so I am excited about developing that relationship. His camshaft selection for Briou seems to spot on for the goal of his car so I imagine he is a great option for me as well.
The other note here is that I've chosen 7.5k RPM as a compromise of sorts. Fully forged bottom end with Ti intake valves should enable me to roll a bit higher if necessary should I decide to go that route. The Holley Hi-Ram has some serious potential up there from what I've seen.
I'll have to start a build thread early next month when I get the short block assembled.
As you deduced I'm not opposed to spending what it takes to realize my goals and can extend my desired timeline to accommodate it. I do want hard data before I make my decision and first hand accounts are paramount. I respect the pros and manufacturers and value their opinions but they are also in the business of selling me their product.
Disclosure: I'm an engineer in a family of sales people.
I have reached out to Martin and he got back to me quickly. His shop is where I plan to have my engine tuned as well so I am excited about developing that relationship. His camshaft selection for Briou seems to spot on for the goal of his car so I imagine he is a great option for me as well.
The other note here is that I've chosen 7.5k RPM as a compromise of sorts. Fully forged bottom end with Ti intake valves should enable me to roll a bit higher if necessary should I decide to go that route. The Holley Hi-Ram has some serious potential up there from what I've seen.
I'll have to start a build thread early next month when I get the short block assembled.
