It's Christmas for me?
TECH Veteran
Joined: Sep 2014
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From: Mississippi
On option number 1 you mentioned Johnson lifters with axle oiling......what's the benefit of axle oiling vs a lifter than doesn't have axle oiling ? It's a pretty good difference on pricing I see...
Axle oiling is especially helpful for street cars with higher springs pressures that will spend a good amount of time idling or cruising at low speeds that will not have the benefit of splash oiling which is greater at higher RPMs.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
It's a longevity thing. I think pretty much any street driven car that has pretty good spring pressures need that pressure fed oiling. My current combo includes those Johnson lifters. To me, they are worth it - I just don't know if I'd do short-travel again and whether it really helps with anything below say 6800.
Also, in talking to folks who sell both Morel and Johnson, Johnson is now preferred when it comes to HR. I don't know how that affects the solid roller stuff, but it doesn't make me feel as warm and fuzzy. So I may look into some of the Isky stuff or Jesel for lifters.
So that's still one knock I have against the SR stuff - I don't know if I've found a lifter yet for the street. As I said, one builder I talked to suggested I go all the way to a bushed lifter if I wanted it to survive the street. But a lot of other people have said that's not even close to being right. And seeing that this is going into a street car that sees a lot of low speed and idling in traffic and stuff (especially now that I took a job in town and will be driving it 40 miles a day at least once if not twice a week) makes me want that reliability more.
Also, in talking to folks who sell both Morel and Johnson, Johnson is now preferred when it comes to HR. I don't know how that affects the solid roller stuff, but it doesn't make me feel as warm and fuzzy. So I may look into some of the Isky stuff or Jesel for lifters.
So that's still one knock I have against the SR stuff - I don't know if I've found a lifter yet for the street. As I said, one builder I talked to suggested I go all the way to a bushed lifter if I wanted it to survive the street. But a lot of other people have said that's not even close to being right. And seeing that this is going into a street car that sees a lot of low speed and idling in traffic and stuff (especially now that I took a job in town and will be driving it 40 miles a day at least once if not twice a week) makes me want that reliability more.
It's a longevity thing. I think pretty much any street driven car that has pretty good spring pressures need that pressure fed oiling. My current combo includes those Johnson lifters. To me, they are worth it - I just don't know if I'd do short-travel again and whether it really helps with anything below say 6800.
Also, in talking to folks who sell both Morel and Johnson, Johnson is now preferred when it comes to HR. I don't know how that affects the solid roller stuff, but it doesn't make me feel as warm and fuzzy. So I may look into some of the Isky stuff or Jesel for lifters.
So that's still one knock I have against the SR stuff - I don't know if I've found a lifter yet for the street. As I said, one builder I talked to suggested I go all the way to a bushed lifter if I wanted it to survive the street. But a lot of other people have said that's not even close to being right. And seeing that this is going into a street car that sees a lot of low speed and idling in traffic and stuff (especially now that I took a job in town and will be driving it 40 miles a day at least once if not twice a week) makes me want that reliability more.
Also, in talking to folks who sell both Morel and Johnson, Johnson is now preferred when it comes to HR. I don't know how that affects the solid roller stuff, but it doesn't make me feel as warm and fuzzy. So I may look into some of the Isky stuff or Jesel for lifters.
So that's still one knock I have against the SR stuff - I don't know if I've found a lifter yet for the street. As I said, one builder I talked to suggested I go all the way to a bushed lifter if I wanted it to survive the street. But a lot of other people have said that's not even close to being right. And seeing that this is going into a street car that sees a lot of low speed and idling in traffic and stuff (especially now that I took a job in town and will be driving it 40 miles a day at least once if not twice a week) makes me want that reliability more.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
I visit other forums. It seems to be a pretty natural issue with solid rollers. Especially with needle bearing lifters. They like to puke their guts out after a while. Those folks may be running a ton more spring pressure though.
So maybe the LLSR is mild enough that it's not an issue.
Of course, I don't think LS7 lifters belong in a performance motor.
So maybe the LLSR is mild enough that it's not an issue.
Of course, I don't think LS7 lifters belong in a performance motor.
I visit other forums. It seems to be a pretty natural issue with solid rollers. Especially with needle bearing lifters. They like to puke their guts out after a while. Those folks may be running a ton more spring pressure though.
So maybe the LLSR is mild enough that it's not an issue.
Of course, I don't think LS7 lifters belong in a performance motor.
So maybe the LLSR is mild enough that it's not an issue.
Of course, I don't think LS7 lifters belong in a performance motor.
Needle bearings from what? Rocker arms?
The LLSR uses the same BTR springs I was running before. My lift numbers for the cam went up marginally but is still under .650".
The lifter itself appears extremely similar to a ls7 lifter externally. I didn't take the snap rings to one to see what's inside of it though.
I just don't see any significant changes in the components from the typical hyd roller to solid which would make me question reliability.
The LLSR uses the same BTR springs I was running before. My lift numbers for the cam went up marginally but is still under .650".
The lifter itself appears extremely similar to a ls7 lifter externally. I didn't take the snap rings to one to see what's inside of it though.
I just don't see any significant changes in the components from the typical hyd roller to solid which would make me question reliability.
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Considering the LLSR has the same spring pressure but better valve train control I would suspect if anything it would be better than the hydraulic. Unless there is some voodoo as far as the hydraulic lifter acting like a shock absorber in some situations where the solid would not and more force would transmit to the roller.
Is part of the benefit to a SR not resistance to lofting? I would think lofting would still be the biggest stress to the parts. I've seen a lot of LS setups damage roller surfaces or cam lobes but can't recall ever having seen one spit needle bearings.
Considering the LLSR has the same spring pressure but better valve train control I would suspect if anything it would be better than the hydraulic. Unless there is some voodoo as far as the hydraulic lifter acting like a shock absorber in some situations where the solid would not and more force would transmit to the roller.
Is part of the benefit to a SR not resistance to lofting? I would think lofting would still be the biggest stress to the parts. I've seen a lot of LS setups damage roller surfaces or cam lobes but can't recall ever having seen one spit needle bearings.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
Yes, lofting is a big issue. They don't typically spit the bearings. They just fail. And it's typically from shock.
I'm not 100% sure how the forces are different. The SR doesn't have the built in shock absorber like a hydraulic lifter on one hand, so it does transmit more of the force and in turn, the valve action. But on the other, the system doesn't typically go out of control because of an aerated plume of oil/air inside the lifter to cause pumping action. So having stout rockers, pushrods, lifters, and springs is important.
I'm not 100% sure how the forces are different. The SR doesn't have the built in shock absorber like a hydraulic lifter on one hand, so it does transmit more of the force and in turn, the valve action. But on the other, the system doesn't typically go out of control because of an aerated plume of oil/air inside the lifter to cause pumping action. So having stout rockers, pushrods, lifters, and springs is important.
I second that notion, and I suggest he pick up a set of the Darth 280's and put some money back in his pocket as well!
Usually lifters wear quickly on solid lifter combinations that see the street due to spring pressure. With the LLSR you can keep spring pressure very manageable and thus lifter wear is greatly decelerated.
The main issue with hydraulic lifters isn't so much lofting. Lofting is caused by aggressive cam lobes, inadequate spring pressure and push rod deflection. The main issue with hydraulic lifters is pump up and bleed down. Pump up is greatly exasperated by lofting though.
Usually lifters wear quickly on solid lifter combinations that see the street due to spring pressure. With the LLSR you can keep spring pressure very manageable and thus lifter wear is greatly decelerated.
The main issue with hydraulic lifters isn't so much lofting. Lofting is caused by aggressive cam lobes, inadequate spring pressure and push rod deflection. The main issue with hydraulic lifters is pump up and bleed down. Pump up is greatly exasperated by lofting though.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
Don't the Johnson short-travels effectively limit the pump up and bleed down though? I know I'm not proposing to use the short-travel again (here comes custom Manton 3-piece pushrods if I do) but that's what I thought.
Of course, the LS3 FAST has to be good enough above 6400 for it to matter, and until the shorter runners are released, it won't matter. At that point, the TFS 255s and the "race" runners in the FAST LS3 would be a good match for a solid roller setup...
Martin - what lifters do you use with the Crowers and LLSR?
Of course, the LS3 FAST has to be good enough above 6400 for it to matter, and until the shorter runners are released, it won't matter. At that point, the TFS 255s and the "race" runners in the FAST LS3 would be a good match for a solid roller setup...
Martin - what lifters do you use with the Crowers and LLSR?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
And why not an Option 3:
BTR/TFS 255 LS3 Heads 67cc w/BTR Springs & Rev Hollow-Stem Valves (100g)
Cam Motion LLSR 246/256 .660"/.650" 114+4 LSA Camshaft
Crower 74173F Shaft Mount Roller Rockers for TFS 255 Heads
BTR/Trend 3/8" Diameter 0.080” Wall Pushrods
Morel 5425 Solid Roller Lifters w/Axle-Oiling
BTR Ported FAST LSXR 102mm LS3 Intake Manifold (with he hope for new runners)
Pricing is pretty close on all these.
BTR/TFS 255 LS3 Heads 67cc w/BTR Springs & Rev Hollow-Stem Valves (100g)
Cam Motion LLSR 246/256 .660"/.650" 114+4 LSA Camshaft
Crower 74173F Shaft Mount Roller Rockers for TFS 255 Heads
BTR/Trend 3/8" Diameter 0.080” Wall Pushrods
Morel 5425 Solid Roller Lifters w/Axle-Oiling
BTR Ported FAST LSXR 102mm LS3 Intake Manifold (with he hope for new runners)
Pricing is pretty close on all these.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 706
From: Mississippi
So who makes the best lifter for a hydraulic roller ? Morel or Johnson
So there is no side effects of lifters with axle oiling like the engine using more oil ?
Sorry if I asked a dumb question buy I'm trying to learn more and more daily.
So there is no side effects of lifters with axle oiling like the engine using more oil ?
Sorry if I asked a dumb question buy I'm trying to learn more and more daily.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
I think the Johnsons are the best.
No side effect. It just ensures the needle bearings in the lifter are kept lubricated. At low engine speed and idle, where splash from the crank is reduced, the pressure-fed oiling keeps them running happy.
Stock it doesn't matter. The spring pressures aren't great enough to cause enough friction/heat. As you ramp up the cam and the pressures increase, the need for the cooling effects of oil rise.
No side effect. It just ensures the needle bearings in the lifter are kept lubricated. At low engine speed and idle, where splash from the crank is reduced, the pressure-fed oiling keeps them running happy.
Stock it doesn't matter. The spring pressures aren't great enough to cause enough friction/heat. As you ramp up the cam and the pressures increase, the need for the cooling effects of oil rise.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
And because the TEA/TFS 245 heads are always lurking... Option 4. lol
TEA/TFS 245 Heads 67cc
Cam Motion LLSR 252/260 .660"/.650" 114+3 LSA Camshaft
Crower 74101F Shaft Mount Roller Rockers for TFS Heads
BTR/Trend 3/8" Diameter 0.080” Wall Pushrods
Morel 5425 Solid Roller Lifters w/Axle-Oiling
TEA Ported FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold (Already have this)
Of course, the TFS 245s won't be super high RPM screamers, so would it be better to go with a hydraulic setup and turned-down LS3 valves?
TEA/TFS 245 Heads 67cc
Cam Motion LLSR 252/260 .660"/.650" 114+3 LSA Camshaft
Crower 74101F Shaft Mount Roller Rockers for TFS Heads
BTR/Trend 3/8" Diameter 0.080” Wall Pushrods
Morel 5425 Solid Roller Lifters w/Axle-Oiling
TEA Ported FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold (Already have this)
Of course, the TFS 245s won't be super high RPM screamers, so would it be better to go with a hydraulic setup and turned-down LS3 valves?
TECH Veteran
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 706
From: Mississippi
And because the TEA/TFS 245 heads are always lurking... Option 4. lol
TEA/TFS 245 Heads 67cc
Cam Motion LLSR 252/260 .660"/.650" 114+3 LSA Camshaft
Crower 74101F Shaft Mount Roller Rockers for TFS Heads
BTR/Trend 3/8" Diameter 0.080” Wall Pushrods
Morel 5425 Solid Roller Lifters w/Axle-Oiling
TEA Ported FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold (Already have this)
Of course, the TFS 245s won't be super high RPM screamers, so would it be better to go with a hydraulic setup and turned-down LS3 valves?
TEA/TFS 245 Heads 67cc
Cam Motion LLSR 252/260 .660"/.650" 114+3 LSA Camshaft
Crower 74101F Shaft Mount Roller Rockers for TFS Heads
BTR/Trend 3/8" Diameter 0.080” Wall Pushrods
Morel 5425 Solid Roller Lifters w/Axle-Oiling
TEA Ported FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold (Already have this)
Of course, the TFS 245s won't be super high RPM screamers, so would it be better to go with a hydraulic setup and turned-down LS3 valves?
My favorite option so far you've mentioned.. how would that cam drive on the street ? Do you think it would surge or buck alot?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
It'd be equivalent to a 247/255 hyd which is a pretty standard cam... so it should drive okay.
Now, if I stepped up to something like Brian's 251/266 hyd cam... that might buck a lot.
Now, if I stepped up to something like Brian's 251/266 hyd cam... that might buck a lot.