Building a motor to support boost / 600 WHP
03-07-2018, 01:36 PM
#21
Anyhow in seriousness... Would I literally be good with a Reman LQ4 Short Block with good heads (maybe ported L92's?) and a good tune for 600 whp? If there's no advantage to going forged for my power goals then I probably won't...UNLESS you're recommending that I do however.
03-07-2018, 01:41 PM
#22
You dont even need ported heads. Some people prefer high mileage motors since everything is nice and loose, but it really doesn't matter for 600whp. If you've got the motor out, I'd put in springs and whatever cheap turbo cam or stock can suits your taste for RPM and noise/drivability and call it good. The preference would be to get something with GEN 4 rods and pistons as they are beefier and will take more abuse, but not mandatory. Tune tune tune is what will keep it alive.
03-07-2018, 01:47 PM
#23
You do realize that you can control the commanded AFR ratio differently for WOT vs. cruise/idle right? Gas mileage is no problem, but only an idiot would want a certain gas mileage DURING WOT. The top tuners in the world, including OEM tuners like Ford and Chevy, command richer than 11.8 AFR at WOT....guess they must be wrong too. 
Calculating BSFC's and airflow and turbo efficiencies.....been there done that. My 2 bachelors degrees have let me "lrn2mth", have you graduated yet or are still in school?
Calculating BSFC's and airflow and turbo efficiencies.....been there done that. My 2 bachelors degrees have let me "lrn2mth", have you graduated yet or are still in school?
You want to get technical, your original post is misleading and untruthful which is why I jumped in. It is missing information that is required in order to be useful.
This is missing required information to be useful. your post implies that at ANY BOOST, 15, 30, 50psi of boost will be fine. because it is ENTIRELY about the tune.
So even with 2 degrees you were so full of yourself that you didn't even check if the information you are providing will be useful, or in what context. Just goes to show how a degree really doesn't mean anything when it comes to an inflated know-it-all ego, does it.
03-07-2018, 01:59 PM
#24
The title of the thread and the 1st post tells me exactly what I need to know to answer the question....which shows how little you actually know about the turbo LS. Thanks for confirming.
03-07-2018, 02:11 PM
#25
Anyhow in seriousness... Would I literally be good with a Reman LQ4 Short Block with good heads (maybe ported L92's?) and a good tune for 600 whp? If there's no advantage to going forged for my power goals then I probably won't...UNLESS you're recommending that I do however.
'05+ for the beefier rods and widen the piston ring gap (which started this whole temperature debate). Managing A/F to control temps will still be a factor.
I'd shoot for 10PSI first to see where that gets you. You may be happy with that for the near term. Experiencing 500whp for the first time will probably be a thrill. Water/meth injection may not be necessary immediately and can control budget to get you up and running. You'll probably face other challenges like boost control, fueling, plumbing, heat management, exhaust, traction, etc. Later, when you've sorted the bugs and adjusted to the new-found power you can look into upping the boost and adding water/meth injection.
03-07-2018, 02:15 PM
#26
A reman LQ4 will have new cam bearings. That's often the gamble when buying a used LS motor, even if the rest of the engine is clean. So that's a good choice for reliability--provided you're buying from a reliable builder.
'05+ for the beefier rods and widen the piston ring gap (which started this whole temperature debate). Managing A/F to control temps will still be a factor.
I'd shoot for 10PSI first to see where that gets you. You may be happy with that for the near term. Experiencing 500whp for the first time will probably be a thrill. Water/meth injection may not be necessary immediately and can control budget to get you up and running. Later, when you've adjusted to the power, you can look into upping the boost and adding water/meth injection.
'05+ for the beefier rods and widen the piston ring gap (which started this whole temperature debate). Managing A/F to control temps will still be a factor.
I'd shoot for 10PSI first to see where that gets you. You may be happy with that for the near term. Experiencing 500whp for the first time will probably be a thrill. Water/meth injection may not be necessary immediately and can control budget to get you up and running. Later, when you've adjusted to the power, you can look into upping the boost and adding water/meth injection.
03-07-2018, 02:21 PM
#27
600whp doesn't take 30, 50, or usually even 15 psi to achieve, so it is completely unnecessary. These are large c.i. V8's, stop thinking 2.0 turbo crap.
The title of the thread and the 1st post tells me exactly what I need to know to answer the question....which shows how little you actually know about the turbo LS. Thanks for confirming.
The title of the thread and the 1st post tells me exactly what I need to know to answer the question....which shows how little you actually know about the turbo LS. Thanks for confirming.
Much easier to explain things in terms of EGT, piston material thermal expansion, temperature threshold. We can set a cap on EGT and be correct for all of the above variances; How we control that EGT is up to the owner/tuner. You say use more fuel... I say thats crazy waste of gas idiot (basically saying this to the car manufacturers, since they tune it richer than it needs to be) but like the guy below me says, its an advanced topic, too far in the future to go with this hypothetical build. Good point about looking at it from fuel only needs, however I still plan my water in advance thank you very much.
But don't take that to mean I don't still love you. I still love ya, buddy. But if we keep going I will start using math, and ur gonna start to hate this thread.
thing about gapping the rings is actually the most important part of all. I don't want to do it. Taking out the piston? No thanks. Part of the allure of this swap is the not-having-to-f-with-anything to get it to work. Thats why I feel water > ring gapping. Rings come and go- water stays.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 03-07-2018 at 02:42 PM.
03-07-2018, 02:32 PM
#28
I think the point is, he's asking what he needs to do to an engine he's acquiring specifically for boost. Gapping the rings is easily advisable. I also noted that managing AF will still likely be necessary to control temps. I advised him to hold off on water/meth for now to keep it simple. Turbo builds generally happen in phases because of all of the complexities. Proper tuning includes monitoring all of the stats and making adjustments to account for them. While throwing fuel at a cylinder temp problem may not be ideal, it's often the easiest and most effective solution for a street driven car. For a drift or drag car, that's a different story. Each build can be approached differently based on a wide variety of factors. It's too early in this hypothetical build to go much further. Enough rambling.
03-07-2018, 02:58 PM
#29
Nay, you are missing information to make that call. There is no altitude info, it might take him 25psi to hit 600 where he is. There is no trans info, 4l80e will consume more than others. There is no cam info, a stock cam is going to need alot more boost as rpms rise to make the same power. Between altitude (2-5 psi variance) cam (2-6psi variance) and trans (1-2psi variance) we could be looking at anywhere from 15 to 25psi to hit 600wheel on a certain mustang dyno.
Much easier to explain things in terms of EGT, piston material thermal expansion, temperature threshold. We can set a cap on EGT and be correct for all of the above variances; How we control that EGT is up to the owner/tuner. You say use more fuel... I say thats crazy waste of gas idiot (basically saying this to the car manufacturers, since they tune it richer than it needs to be) but like the guy below me says, its an advanced topic, too far in the future to go with this hypothetical build. Good point about looking at it from fuel only needs, however I still plan my water in advance thank you very much.
But don't take that to mean I don't still love you. I still love ya, buddy. But if we keep going I will start using math, and ur gonna start to hate this thread.
thing about gapping the rings is actually the most important part of all. I don't want to do it. Taking out the piston? No thanks. Part of the allure of this swap is the not-having-to-f-with-anything to get it to work. Thats why I feel water > ring gapping. Rings come and go- water stays.
Much easier to explain things in terms of EGT, piston material thermal expansion, temperature threshold. We can set a cap on EGT and be correct for all of the above variances; How we control that EGT is up to the owner/tuner. You say use more fuel... I say thats crazy waste of gas idiot (basically saying this to the car manufacturers, since they tune it richer than it needs to be) but like the guy below me says, its an advanced topic, too far in the future to go with this hypothetical build. Good point about looking at it from fuel only needs, however I still plan my water in advance thank you very much.
But don't take that to mean I don't still love you. I still love ya, buddy. But if we keep going I will start using math, and ur gonna start to hate this thread.
thing about gapping the rings is actually the most important part of all. I don't want to do it. Taking out the piston? No thanks. Part of the allure of this swap is the not-having-to-f-with-anything to get it to work. Thats why I feel water > ring gapping. Rings come and go- water stays.
Saying the oem manufacturers tune too rich to waste gas is assinine. Besides emissions, they have to go at least 100k miles for reliability.....which is your entire point about wanting reliability.....and the oems have that and run richer than you say they should. The entire reason youre saying to not run rich is absolutely opposite of the oems who care highly about reliability.....you just can't admit your arrogance and listen for a change....just like every thread you post in.
03-07-2018, 03:51 PM
#30
TECH Senior Member
Hey! Don't diss Talon! He knows WAY more than the OEMs. Just ask him. EVERYONE knows theory beats actual practice. Right Talon???
03-07-2018, 04:26 PM
#32
TECH Senior Member
03-07-2018, 09:06 PM
#33
Saying the oem manufacturers tune too rich to waste gas is assinine. Besides emissions, they have to go at least 100k miles for reliability.....which is your entire point about wanting reliability.....and the oems have that and run richer than you say they should. The entire reason youre saying to not run rich is absolutely opposite of the oems who care highly about reliability....
Yeah I can't figure out why the OEM isn't putting an extra unnecessary system on the cars which reduces economy and requires the owner to frequently re-fill or else have catastrophic engine failure. It eludes me completely why they don't do that. I think you missed where I was using sarcasm first, in order to not call you an idiot. But now you've done it to yourself.
Also you use a lot of dots after things as if you aren't really sure what you are saying....
03-07-2018, 09:16 PM
#34
TECH Senior Member
The ONLY one making an idiot out of himself is YOU, Talon. You spend so much energy TRYING to prove yourself right, you lose sight of common sense, if you ever had it in the first place.
03-08-2018, 06:59 AM
#37
All joking aside, literally the most ironic thing in this entire thread is that you're entire argument is based on reliability. The problem is that the OEM's agree with me, including 1 who is a member on here and regarded by many as the best tuner in the country and tunes for the OEM's. All this info is in his books, which is your bread and butter. Come jump on the bandwagon of reliability and high horsepower!
03-08-2018, 07:31 AM
#38
Restricted User
03-08-2018, 07:41 AM
#39
Restricted User
Anyhow in seriousness... Would I literally be good with a Reman LQ4 Short Block with good heads (maybe ported L92's?) and a good tune for 600 whp? If there's no advantage to going forged for my power goals then I probably won't...UNLESS you're recommending that I do however.
Most people have problems with the stock rings butting together cracking pistons, usually from a bad tune. A few ways to get around this:
1. Pop the pistons out and gap the rings.
2. Tune with super-safe timing and a mildly fat AFR.
3. Run water injection (does a decent job of cooling rings).
4. Run E85.
5. Run a high mileage engine that may have gained a few thousandths of gap (150k+).
I've been accidently been 42 PSI on a junkyard 5.3 with the stronger rods, and my recent tear down showed ZERO signs of detonation, bent rods, cracking pistons, butting rings, etc. This is also after over 2 years of 18-24 PSI street driving, 60+ dyno pulls, HUNDREDS of highway pulls. All on 93 octane with a splash of water/meth and a safe tune.
03-08-2018, 09:22 AM
#40
A 100% stock 6.0 is able to make 600whp reliably as long as that tune is nailed down. If you get one that is 04+ with the stronger rods, it'll do 600whp on a garbage tune and still won't be able to hurt the rods.
Most people have problems with the stock rings butting together cracking pistons, usually from a bad tune. A few ways to get around this:
1. Pop the pistons out and gap the rings.
2. Tune with super-safe timing and a mildly fat AFR.
3. Run water injection (does a decent job of cooling rings).
4. Run E85.
5. Run a high mileage engine that may have gained a few thousandths of gap (150k+).
I've been accidently been 42 PSI on a junkyard 5.3 with the stronger rods, and my recent tear down showed ZERO signs of detonation, bent rods, cracking pistons, butting rings, etc. This is also after over 2 years of 18-24 PSI street driving, 60+ dyno pulls, HUNDREDS of highway pulls. All on 93 octane with a splash of water/meth and a safe tune.
Most people have problems with the stock rings butting together cracking pistons, usually from a bad tune. A few ways to get around this:
1. Pop the pistons out and gap the rings.
2. Tune with super-safe timing and a mildly fat AFR.
3. Run water injection (does a decent job of cooling rings).
4. Run E85.
5. Run a high mileage engine that may have gained a few thousandths of gap (150k+).
I've been accidently been 42 PSI on a junkyard 5.3 with the stronger rods, and my recent tear down showed ZERO signs of detonation, bent rods, cracking pistons, butting rings, etc. This is also after over 2 years of 18-24 PSI street driving, 60+ dyno pulls, HUNDREDS of highway pulls. All on 93 octane with a splash of water/meth and a safe tune.
