Pbarby

My car/parts:
01 WS6
1 7/8 LT headers, 3” true duals, no cats/mufflers, 4 resonators
Tranzilla T56, standard 1-4 gears, aggressive 5-6, Z06 clutch
Moser 9”, WaveTrac 3:75, steel 4” driveshaft, 285/40/17 Nitto NT555
BMR/UMI k-member, A-arms, trailing arms, torque bar
95k mi LS1 w/ head-turning tick and loss of power, goes through a quart every 3 fill ups (10mpg).

Allocating 15k for new motor.

Goals
-575-600 RWHP with similar and reasonably consistent torque through-out RPM band.
-Streetable (little chop ok); 95% street driven. Occasional road course and ¼ mile runs.
-Keeping A/C
-Needs to be a trouble free motor for 75k-100k miles.
-Buy the best set up without over-buying
-93 octane (don’t think I can trust E85 in the Chicago’s near-west suburbs.).
-Max 6500rpm...lower is ok

Darton-Sleeved 5.3 Gen IV, 427ci (4.125 bore, 4.0 stroke) – Worth/Possible building with a 5.3 Gen III?
-Why DS 5.3? Same money as LS7 with stronger sleeves, no piston rock (vs LS3 stroked), ample torque 2k+ RPM.
-LS7, 285 PRC heads with Titanium intake, hallow exhaust valves. Pretty sure this is too much?.
-Fast 102 intake w/ NW cable Throttle body maybe overkill?
-12point head bolts, ARP Main studs, Cometic gaskets, pump/chain/lifters that comes with the TSP long block package
-LS7 rockers w trunnion upgrade (Or LS3/LS1 based on what I learn here)
-11-11.5 CR (very open to suggestion)
-Use my LS1 oil pan, chain cover, coils, valley cover, valve covers and newer LS1 42lb bosch injectors
-Pat G spec’d cam (I'm assuming he is who TSP goes to when ordering a custom cam).

You may be asking why post this and not talk to TSP directly? I always fear that the person taking my order may still be cutting their teeth. It’s a lot of money for me, and I want to get it right the first time, show my kid and his friends how easy/fun it could be and continue my happily married life.

I do often think about rebuilding my shortblock, new small heads and supercharging but worried about self-assembly and longevity. Buying a new 5.3 longblock for boost w/ supercharger puts me 3-5k beyond my budget for power I probably can’t put down on the pavement [I realize TMS has a budget boost motor..but I can’t have (or want to worry about) future failures] . 600rwhp N/A is probably already overkill.

My questions summarized:
-Am I thinking along the right lines with the darton-sleeves for longevity and piston-rock? Can I get more cubes without long-term worry?
-I think, from what I've read here, that my power goals and streetability are within reason?
-For my goals, are LS7 285 heads with titanium valves overkill? If yes, what option would be best (LS3 260’s, cathedral 247s)? I understand the need for turbulence when entering the chamber.
-Will LS7 (or LS3) intake work or is FAST a must? Which Throttle body would be best (brand/size)?
-What piston/rod/crank manuf? Worth $400 upgrading to callies from the standard TSP brand?
-I honestly just threw out the 11-11.5 CR for feedback?
-Are my LS1 42lb bosch injectors sufficient?
-Single upgraded fuel-pump sufficient?
-Will all my listed carry-over parts work?
-Am I correct that TSP will use Pat G to spec the custom cam?
-Balancer necessary (plan to get new crank pulley/ARP bolt)?
-What’s a realistic turnaround time for the motor? (pulling motor and painting engine bay at year-end)
-E85 in Chicagoland area any good? Will E85 require larger injectors and/or dual pumps then?
-Quench? I can picture it, but can't calculate it.

Since the brains of this motor rests upon the Cam, would Pat G. be a better person to spec this motor if he provides such a service? I’ve read many of his posts and don’t mind paying a fee for knowledge knowing what to expect when it's ready to drive.

Thanks as always

NHRAFORMULA00

iTrader: (2)

Give Tony Mamo a ring.

Che70velle

iTrader: (6)

NHRATA01

iTrader: (10)

A couple thoughts here, I did a similar thing last year but went with a 454. Not because it would be cheapest or fastest, but because it was a big N/A motor and had some other personal reasons too. But boost has definitely become the better way to make more power economically.

15K is pretty spot on for the motor to show up at your doorstep depending on how many of your old parts you reuse. Factor in a couple K more for miscellaneous parts and tuning. I agree cost no object Tony would be a great choice, but when following a similar 454 build thread he did for someone I saw it made clear "upwards of $25K". Besides blowing my budget I honestly felt his talents would be somewhat wasted on a street car build like mine anyway.

I think having Pat G choose the cam is a good idea. I let TSP recommend mine and I guess I wasn't clear enough to the salesman about it being a 95/5 street/strip car because their cam in my sig is a monster that doesn't really like life below 2K, and the tuner spent a lot of hours trying to get it reasonably streetable. I knew it was mean for an LS7 so I figured the extra cubes would blunt it somewhat but it's still quite aggressive. My car only gets 1k miles/yr so it's liveable but I'd shoot myself if I was commuting in it. So don't overcam it! OTOH 600rwhp may be tough on a 427 without getting a wild cam. My numbers are in the sig, granted it was still a very green motor and it's choked on the exhaust side going through a stock style 3" catback.

On the intake side I would recommend picking up an MSD and having Tony port it to get every last hp out of it. For the TB I went with the Holley 105 with the low speed taper.

I am running a racetronix 255 and it keeps up fine, although I do get about a 10psi pressure drop at WOT however the tuner accounted for it and A/F is good. A 340 would probably be better though.

I think you will probably need to bump up to 60# injectors.

I would get a proper Fluidamper for the balancer

I went with the stock TSP stuff for the bottom end and IMO for a street car it's plenty fine particularly if you're not looking to live it's life past 7K and race every weekend.

My CR came out at 11.5:1.

LS7 stuff on a 427 is the way to go IMO.

And beyond that it's all the other little nuances with a Gen4 swapping into a Gen3 that are spelled out in the sticky.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

I definitely agree - call Tony. I think his 265 heads are the best you're gonna get on a LS7. Better heads can get by with less cam, which will make the thing very driveable. I bet even with Tony's heads you can be in your 15K budget for the motor. Plus, that intake valve guide thing is fixed by the TFS castings. As to some of your other questions, here is my 428 experience...

No, your bosch 42's won't be enough. you'll need 60's. My 42's were seeing 105% IDC and still lean.

Aim higher on CR. I ended up at 12.2. Compensate with a later IVC to keep your DCR down to 8.5-ish. This will put your IVC around 52 degrees, and it'll run great. EVO at 60, then decide how much overlap you can tolerate, and that will determine your IVO and EVC, and ultimately your cam specs. With exactly zero overlap, that would be 232/240-118+2. if you want more chop, then go to say twelve degrees overlap, and you're at 238/246-115+2, and it will still drive pretty tame. Many would still call that a baby cam on a 427. I'm running a 247/255, and it drives decent. For me. For my wife, it's too rowdy. My father in law was able to drive it first time without stalling, FWIW.

There's a holley oil pan I ended up using for the deeper front area. You will likely want a steering rack relocation if you go that route. i would do that anyway just to create space. While you're in there, do an improved racing crank scraper.

LS1 valve covers won't go on due to the offset rockers. Front and rear covers will transfer, unless you need the front cam sensor.

lingenfelter 24x conversion box does OK as long as it doesn't got hot. mount it where it stays cool. if you plan to swap reluctor wheels, nevermind.

MSD airforce kicks fast102 *** on the ls7. I ran the stock ls7 intake for a little while. it does OK, but at WOT, I was getting 7-10 kpa vacuum, so the stock ls7 intake simply cannot keep up with the motor. i plan to go ITB, but in the mean time i threw a sniper on it, because it was cheap and gets me to 100 kpa map at WOT vs 90.

Don't cheap out on your clutch. And don't be surprised if it doesn't hold the power.

Be prepared to tune the living **** out of it. it's a lot to dial in. The 100-mm maf card will actually be a restriction in the intake, so you'll likely end up open loop speed density.

Fuel economy - expect around 14mpg mixed. I have not had a long enough highway run to know what it gets on the highway. I've had tanks where I couldn't keep my foot out of it in single digits.

All said and done, the thing you'll have the most ongoing problem with is TRACTION. First and second are completely worthless. Third spins on hard upshift and also at peak torque under load, which is scary AF at 110+ mph with your foot all the way down. Fourth broke loose on my once under power at 6300 rpm and damn near 130 mph. Budget a few thou a year for tires.

spanks13

iTrader: (5)

I don't think you have a good mix of parts in the first post. A darton sleeved 5.3 is going to be down appreciable power at higher RPM due to poor crankcase windage. The LS7 has significant bay to bay breathing windows that are worth ~20 horsepower according to the man himself Steve at RED.

At the power levels you're talking about things need to be spot on or you're going to fall way short of your goal. 20 horsepower is not something you just pull out of thin air at 550whp+.

285cc heads aren't going to be the right choice for trying to make that kind of power below 6500 rpm either. For a 6500 rpm max engine that actually works well in the car you'll want it to peak ~6000 so you can shift past peak power. You might want to look into a 4.100 crank which will bring the peak rev's down a bit, or get comfortable with the idea of ripping off 7500 rpm shifts.

Pbarby

Thank you, gentlemen. I'm a little heartbroken, but only because I've been mentally completing this project for a few months. My gut was telling me I was aiming too high. I'll email Tony to see about his heads outright. But I have a feeling I'm going to need to aim lower in the 500-550 rwhp range...itll be tougher to let go of all the cash for 100-150hp more than my current, ticking motor.

thanks again for the info, I feel grounded and will continue my research.

I read this on a post here...budget=motivation.

spanks13

iTrader: (5)

Tuskyz28

I personally think you guys is overthinking the cylinder heads for the OP build. You dont need Tony Mamo heads to make 675 at the crank from a 427ci motor which is roughly 575 at the rear wheels.

I think about any aftermarket head will get the OP there without 5k grand heads and here is why i say that.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1809-refresh-bigger-cam-ls7-worth-661-hp/

You can clearly see a stock headed LS7 427 can make 660 horse without breaking the bank. Im go say with a Ported Fast intake it wouldve made 675hp. Just my opinion....

Double06

The LS2 and LS3 blocks also have bay-to-bay breathing so you could use those as you are on a budget. The reason guys use the 5.3 is for blower / turbo motors and they need the strength and are not pecking and clawing like us NA guys to get HP (not good enough I'll just turn up the boost).

KCS

iTrader: (20)

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

FWIW - OP,

With the new bigger engine regardless of which block & heads etc, be sure to include fuel system upgrades, radiator upgrade & high cfm fans in the budgeting.

WS6 Store had a build for a customer with a 416 that made 600 whp. We discussed it in detail last year when selecting parts for my 416 build. It was reasonably budget friendly.

Steve @ Race Engine Development (RED) or Bischoff Engine Service would be my choice to sleeve an LS block. I've read about sleeved LS engines since the early days, both of these do outstanding work.

Horsepower Research would be at the top of my list to contact. Erik Koenig's is definitely an LS engine master. The The 454 looks good.

Likewise, Reher - Morrison because Darin Morgan will definitely get your engine build to do exactly what you want. Darin has many excellent programs developed for LS3/LS7 head's that are budget friendly and effective. Darin and I discussed engine longevity in detail for my 416 build. With proper part selection, a quality builder and good maintenance, 75,000 miles is very possible. I went with Reher-Morrison for cylinder heads after talking in detail with Darin.

One of our members, I think it was 427LS6 had a sleeved 427+ engine go 170,000 + miles with proper maintenance and care.

Oil consumption with the 4 inch stroke crank isn't an issue with a expert builder that selects the correct piston for the application. I have two LS stroker engines a 383 LS1 & 416 LSA neither burn oil. Both have a set of trick Wiseco pistons with the correct taper & ring package to avoid issues. Using the Darton Sleeves, piston rock & oil consumption shouldn't be an issue with the correct piston

Scoggin Dickey Performance Center offers a LS3 based 427 short block that looks pretty sweet given the price that might be worth researching.

Best wishes with the build.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

You're not wrong. I got 565 rwhp on my 428 with lingenfelter ls7 heads, 247/255 cam, holly sniper intake, dual exhaust, 4.30 gears, 9" rear and with the tires slipping on the rollers, so I think it read low. That's at least 660 crank from a garage built 428. Without wheel slip, I think it would have hit 580-600

I was only keying off of OP request for minimal chop, which generally means smaller cam, which generally means better heads. You can get a 454 assembled short block built on the LSNext from Shafiroff under 6K, pick your heads, cam, rockers, intake, and even with quality parts come in under 15K.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Clearance must have been TIGHT to pull that off. Was that 4.185 x 4.56 to hit 502?

KCS

iTrader: (20)

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

That was a cool read, thanks for that. Gettin it done for sure!

big hammer

Pbarby

All; Thank you. This is very helpful

NHRAF and Chevelle…I emailed with Tony Mamo a few months ago when I first considered this build. I was hoping for a one-place-builds-all. I do believe what you are saying is accurate and it’s making me consider assemblying his heads to a short block. For my budget, I’d have to cut back on the shortblock though.

NHRAT – Thanks for the support. TSP still isn’t off my list. To be honest, when I posted I thought I’d get all sorts of support for them but it’s good that I was given so many other options to consider so I can feel informed about my choice. The MSD is starting to grown on me and I’ll be sure to get the bigger fuel pump and injectors.

Darth – Awesome pic. Thought it was two fingers holding a tiny cam at first. Haha. Thanks for the heads up on the valve covers and also mentioning the MSD. For a first time, your explanation of cam events started making sense to me. I’m trying not to go cheap, just responsible...The Z06 clutch is reasonably new and already on the car. We’ll see how long it lasts before I shell out another 1500 on a twin disk (my wife drives her too). I’ll inquire with my tuner before I commit to the speed density/MAF and TB. Fuel economy…HAHAHAHAHAHA. All joking aside, I don’t mind chop at all…as long as it can get tuned to have street manors and not die out when I turn on the A/C.

Spanks – Thanks for you input and for HPR recommendation. I was impressed with their 454 package and am in contact with Anthony. He’s going to put a couple options together and get back with me.

Tusky – I appreciate your comments regarding the heads requirement. It felt good to read. Not saying that Mamo doesn’t do great work, but my street-build may not be worth his talent….as NHRAT stated. That’s a great article on the LS7…felt good to know my goals is not impossible for my budget.

Double06- I didn’t realize the 5.3 issue with N/A motors. More to think about and one less thing to have to worry about.

KCS – Thanks for sharing that post. Obviously more than I need but definitely a cool read. Any other useful info you have will always be appreciated.

Big Hammer – Thanks for the smaller-head support. It would save my a substantial amount of money while still supporting my goals.

So far, I’ve contacted RED who referred me to LME and HPR. Exchanged some emails with Anthony at HPR and waiting a response with different packages they offer. They use a shorter piston and rings to limit piston rock which they also use in an LS3 to get even more cubes out of it. Looking forward to his quotes since the 454 they have on their website looks very promising. I did explain to him that oil consumption and longevity are very important to me.

I emailed LME and waiting a response.

I haven’t forgotten about TSP.

Based on the article above, I may contact Katech as well (need to research them a little more).

Tony Mamo heads seem awesome. He sent me pics a few months back but made it clear top end packages is all he would offer.

Once I gather all the info I can, I’ll need to pull out my pocket book by early December, or so, to have the motor by Feb-Mar.

Thanks again everyone. I’ll post progress for those who are interested.

Edit: Oh, and I need to do more research on wet-sump (brought up by HPR) Not sure all that equipment will fit or if it will blow my budget. haha

Double06

If you are looking at aftermarket head packages - WCCH has a nice Brodix LS7 program also. All depends on the budget and what you want to do. NA can be challenging.

Mavn

iTrader: (3)

My 416ci Ci motor makes 575 rwhp and it was BUDGET build. I have under 8k in the whole setup intake to oil pan.

And drives amazing. I can drive it anywhere and get 20 mpg! and I have roughly 50K miles on the shortblock. and cyl walls still look perfect


LS3 block
416ci
12:1
PRc 247cc Cathedrals
Fast 102
17/8 speed E headers
Spee Tru Duals
25X 25X .64x 110? cam I cant remember the exact specs

Stock rocker
7.425 pushrods
etc