Well here goes nothing (low dyno)
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
But I thought you generally run more timing to produce more power, not less? And I thought one of the main timing factors is your octane rating. I thought higher octane you can run more timing thus producing more
Last edited by Floorman279; Dec 25, 2018 at 08:32 AM.
Timing numbers will vary based mostly upon combustion chamber design and octane. Every head will want different timing numbers. Your tuner might find max power at 28* (just a guess...) so why run more? Even if your running 116 race gas, the engine just won’t make any more power past that threshold. Throwing more at it won’t help you, and in fact could hurt. Over timing the engine will often result in running hotter and detonation, and then your knock sensors tell the ECM to pull timing, which reduces power.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
So basically you dont design a motor to run at a timing number, you figure that number out after you build. And in theory, if for some reason you don't think you peaked at 28, you could try 29 and now get knock, you could add booster to see if that helps you run more timing to achieve peak, but that scenario would be rare I'm assuming.
I think I'll email him and discuss running a hair more compression, pretty much 12.0, and adjusting the cam events to make it work with our safety margin vs sticking with the 11.8
I think I'll email him and discuss running a hair more compression, pretty much 12.0, and adjusting the cam events to make it work with our safety margin vs sticking with the 11.8
So basically you dont design a motor to run at a timing number, you figure that number out after you build. And in theory, if for some reason you don't think you peaked at 28, you could try 29 and now get knock, you could add booster to see if that helps you run more timing to achieve peak, but that scenario would be rare I'm assuming.
I think I'll email him and discuss running a hair more compression, pretty much 12.0, and adjusting the cam events to make it work with our safety margin vs sticking with the 11.8
I think I'll email him and discuss running a hair more compression, pretty much 12.0, and adjusting the cam events to make it work with our safety margin vs sticking with the 11.8
One thing to keep in mind, if you can make peak power with less timing that is a GOOD thing. It means you have an efficient combustion chamber. Sometimes the intake has influence.
On my old 346, peak timing was 23 degrees and it did not matter what fuel I used. Swapped fast 102 for msd, it wanted 26.
Like chevelle said, dont build for timing. Build for power. Figure out which timing works best on the dyno. On a ls3 or ls7 type head, bet on 22-24 degrees will be close
On my old 346, peak timing was 23 degrees and it did not matter what fuel I used. Swapped fast 102 for msd, it wanted 26.
Like chevelle said, dont build for timing. Build for power. Figure out which timing works best on the dyno. On a ls3 or ls7 type head, bet on 22-24 degrees will be close
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2016
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From: Central Cal.
I'm no expert, but building for timing makes about as much sense as building for valve lash. Either one is a RESULT of an engine's final configuration. You adapt THEM to the situation, not vice-versa.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
see this is why I come here cause I have no idea about these things. But it does make more sense to do it that way vs the other way.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
so now onto oil pans and k members......considering spending more money on this by going the aftermarket k member route. i think we could wait til later for the a arms. looking for advice here.......as far as k members, im goona keep my stock steering rack, and will be running the poly engine/rubber trans mount combo due to it still being a primary street car. also a 2" header, either ARH or kooks. with those factors in mind, is there any k member that stands out? im biased towards MWC for now since i bought a rear from them and assume i can get an ok discount by getting one from them. will any aftermarket k member designed for stock steering accommodate those needs?
also, im running crank mounted wet sump on this setup, with the additional clearance of the k member, would i benefit from any other oil pan than my fbody pan? 90% street car, 7500 absolute max rpms.
also, im running crank mounted wet sump on this setup, with the additional clearance of the k member, would i benefit from any other oil pan than my fbody pan? 90% street car, 7500 absolute max rpms.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
i love how this works out, anti aftermarket k member, now looking at the UMI piece, with the double tubing along the front and at 10% off im sorta getting a chubb.
A friend has the MWC rear end and ordered their K-member. He's been happy with all his MWC parts.
UMI makes excellent products too. I have their K-member & arms in my 91 RS.
It's a win-win choice
I skipped the K-member on my 99 TA because budget started getting tight and doing the a-arms too would be a squeeze. In hindsight I wished I'd done the UMI K-member and went back later to do the a-arms.
Off Topic for brief comment.
That's true wisdom in boldface.
Cars & trucks start on the highway to hell in a hand basket when they sit for a while. If it turns into an extended period it can be disaster. Horrible things like vindictive squirrels will chew through the wiring harness to the fuel pump, the rabid neighborhood home owners association will go after your car or worse still the owner loses interest.
UMI makes excellent products too. I have their K-member & arms in my 91 RS.
It's a win-win choice
I skipped the K-member on my 99 TA because budget started getting tight and doing the a-arms too would be a squeeze. In hindsight I wished I'd done the UMI K-member and went back later to do the a-arms.
Mine was not designed by Tony, but by me. And its a stop gap until I can save up for Tony's 265 heads. I am likely leaving 40 hp on the table but I did what I had to to get the car running. I firmly believe it is best to keep the car running if it all possible even if it means going back in for revision surgery.
Sometimes, you are better off to run slightly less compression and more timing. I need to look at my tune to see where timing is on mine. It may only be 21 degrees. But Tony might be thinking along those lines. Its a best guess.
Sometimes, you are better off to run slightly less compression and more timing. I need to look at my tune to see where timing is on mine. It may only be 21 degrees. But Tony might be thinking along those lines. Its a best guess.
That's true wisdom in boldface.
Cars & trucks start on the highway to hell in a hand basket when they sit for a while. If it turns into an extended period it can be disaster. Horrible things like vindictive squirrels will chew through the wiring harness to the fuel pump, the rabid neighborhood home owners association will go after your car or worse still the owner loses interest.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; Dec 31, 2018 at 08:18 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
Too late, the car is underthe knife.
how painless would a 2 inch Install be with an aftermarket k member? Remove steering shaft only and raise it 15 inches?
the k member could be a win win tho, I wanted 2 inch now simply because easier install with engines out of car. With an aftermarket k member the 2 inch headers should go in relatively easy right? I could save 1100 and re run my 1 7/8 for a little.
how painless would a 2 inch Install be with an aftermarket k member? Remove steering shaft only and raise it 15 inches?
the k member could be a win win tho, I wanted 2 inch now simply because easier install with engines out of car. With an aftermarket k member the 2 inch headers should go in relatively easy right? I could save 1100 and re run my 1 7/8 for a little.
Last edited by Floorman279; Dec 31, 2018 at 06:16 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
Decided an aftermarket k member isn't for me. Sorry, but if rather deal with the stock one.
any opinions on if a different pan is necessary? Assuming now, stock baffling should be fine, if I go to a road course I'll just add an extra quart
any opinions on if a different pan is necessary? Assuming now, stock baffling should be fine, if I go to a road course I'll just add an extra quart
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
progress, the heads were removed prior to engine coming out due to diagnosing the initial problem and wasnt done deciding if i was goona yank it out yet or not. since most wires were already disconnected, i decided to keep the harness with the car. i will be removing it tho and hooking it up to the motor before putting motor back in. some extra work but made it super easy to see everything since this was my first time doing this. went smooth, my homemade cart will need a small adjustment to make it easier later......but it was free to build since i already had the car dollies and saved the transmission pallet. i just added the 4x4. i did knock the 4x4 to the left to where it was 2 inches away from the cross brace on the dolly, that was basically where the k member sat.....perfect size cart and it barely popped when the entire front half of the car was supported on it
Last edited by Floorman279; Jan 1, 2019 at 03:03 PM. Reason: ......
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 347
Likes: 10
I had to make the same decision just months ago, and an after-market K-member made sense all the way around. Curious, why against an aftermarket K member?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,699
Likes: 168
From: Wilmington, DE
i will say this but i dont want one person to reply against me......i prefer the extra toughness that the hefty oem piece provides......i understand that only one company has had an issue in the past with these failing, and id say any k member made today will probably never break, but im not chancing it. sorry. please nobody turn this into a "aftermarket k members wont fail" convo. my personal decision is to keep the stocker.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 347
Likes: 10
i will say this but i dont want one person to reply against me......i prefer the extra toughness that the hefty oem piece provides......i understand that only one company has had an issue in the past with these failing, and id say any k member made today will probably never break, but im not chancing it. sorry. please nobody turn this into a "aftermarket k members wont fail" convo. my personal decision is to keep the stocker.
Now you've probably already thought about this a lot already, so I'm not pushing the envelope. The only thing I will say is, "if you're already in there, you might as well knock it out" - but I get it. I was just curious :-)