Dart SHP Pro Iron 434
02-17-2020, 11:36 AM
#61
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
That thread is old.
I went through that though Tusky.
I had a 223/231 111LSA camshaft in my stroker engine and it was a turd. (I had to wait for the larger cam to arrive and wanted engine running)
Going to a 236/244 114LSA the engine was much stronger everywhere even off idle.
I think that thread is from the early days when the square port LS3 heads first came out and people were still experimenting.and not knowing what works.
They were afraid of putting a large camshaft in the engine.
Now we know what to do.
I went through that though Tusky.
I had a 223/231 111LSA camshaft in my stroker engine and it was a turd. (I had to wait for the larger cam to arrive and wanted engine running)
Going to a 236/244 114LSA the engine was much stronger everywhere even off idle.
I think that thread is from the early days when the square port LS3 heads first came out and people were still experimenting.and not knowing what works.
They were afraid of putting a large camshaft in the engine.
Now we know what to do.
02-17-2020, 12:09 PM
#62
TECH Veteran
A bigger cam isnt always better.
example... ive seen 224 cammed ls1 cars pimp slap bigger cammed cars. Dont always think the bigger the cam the better/faster your car will go.
example... ive seen 224 cammed ls1 cars pimp slap bigger cammed cars. Dont always think the bigger the cam the better/faster your car will go.
02-17-2020, 12:13 PM
#63
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02-17-2020, 08:38 PM
#65
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Thread Starter
This shouldn't be an issue with the fast as we are using more cam and sacrificing some of the bottom end for more top end to get it to hang on.
Power to 7000rpm is what I am wanting
02-18-2020, 12:34 AM
#66
Guys,
I really feel I have this combo all sorted out now....even going back on my original decision to go with the MSD.
The new plan is truly a better compromise of all the goals initially set forth.....of course there will always be some compromising when building a stout street engine versus a max effort piece which is much more straightforward in so many respects.
Building powerful street engines that you can live with is much more challenging but its also been one of my specialties for a very long time. Really efficient high flowing heads combined with an optimized induction and valvetrain that create a perfectly optimized combination is the only way this is achieved but sometimes such is the case here, a tremendous amount of thought must go into it to produce a really impressive end result (granted my statement is the cart before the horse with no dyno results yet but I have been doing this for decades and Im confident this engine will perform if the shortblock is properly built and the engine is properly tuned).
Highlights of the final changes as follows.....we are bumping the static compression a half point or so which picks up the bottom (and the middle and the top)....swapping the FAST back in the mix which will really fatten the bottom and the middle of the torque curve and just makes more sense when we consider that we would never take true advantage of the RPM the MSD really shines....the FAST is just that much better suited to the goals of this build and knowing we have cubes, compression, a really efficient high speed / high volume cathedral port design to work with, and the long runners of the FAST back in the mix, Im much more comfy putting some decent duration in the camshaft and that's the final piece of the puzzle which will help the engine hang on better up top (even with the longer runner FAST) widening what I expect to be a pretty flat torque curve even further.
This approach to the build should get us that fattest curve possible in the range that Peter can utilize with his current automatic driveline (7K or so) and offers the least amount of compromises to the have your cake and eat it to wish-list of goals.
Im confident the results will impress and I hope Peter finds a way to get this engine bolted to an engine dyno before installing it in the car as that's the only way we will really be able to see its true potential. It wont make hero numbers behind a stalled auto but at the least we will get to see the shape of the curve and compare it all to his former chassis dyno results assuming the same dyno is utilized
Looking forward to all of this coming together
Cheers,
Tony
I really feel I have this combo all sorted out now....even going back on my original decision to go with the MSD.
The new plan is truly a better compromise of all the goals initially set forth.....of course there will always be some compromising when building a stout street engine versus a max effort piece which is much more straightforward in so many respects.
Building powerful street engines that you can live with is much more challenging but its also been one of my specialties for a very long time. Really efficient high flowing heads combined with an optimized induction and valvetrain that create a perfectly optimized combination is the only way this is achieved but sometimes such is the case here, a tremendous amount of thought must go into it to produce a really impressive end result (granted my statement is the cart before the horse with no dyno results yet but I have been doing this for decades and Im confident this engine will perform if the shortblock is properly built and the engine is properly tuned).
Highlights of the final changes as follows.....we are bumping the static compression a half point or so which picks up the bottom (and the middle and the top)....swapping the FAST back in the mix which will really fatten the bottom and the middle of the torque curve and just makes more sense when we consider that we would never take true advantage of the RPM the MSD really shines....the FAST is just that much better suited to the goals of this build and knowing we have cubes, compression, a really efficient high speed / high volume cathedral port design to work with, and the long runners of the FAST back in the mix, Im much more comfy putting some decent duration in the camshaft and that's the final piece of the puzzle which will help the engine hang on better up top (even with the longer runner FAST) widening what I expect to be a pretty flat torque curve even further.
This approach to the build should get us that fattest curve possible in the range that Peter can utilize with his current automatic driveline (7K or so) and offers the least amount of compromises to the have your cake and eat it to wish-list of goals.
Im confident the results will impress and I hope Peter finds a way to get this engine bolted to an engine dyno before installing it in the car as that's the only way we will really be able to see its true potential. It wont make hero numbers behind a stalled auto but at the least we will get to see the shape of the curve and compare it all to his former chassis dyno results assuming the same dyno is utilized
Looking forward to all of this coming together
Cheers,
Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 02-18-2020 at 12:46 AM.
02-18-2020, 01:15 AM
#67
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
Guys,
I really feel I have this combo all sorted out now....even going back on my original decision to go with the MSD.
The new plan is truly a better compromise of all the goals initially set forth.....of course there will always be some compromising when building a stout street engine versus a max effort piece which is much more straightforward in so many respects.
Building powerful street engines that you can live with is much more challenging but its also been one of my specialties for a very long time. Really efficient high flowing heads combined with an optimized induction and valvetrain that create a perfectly optimized combination is the only way this is achieved but sometimes such is the case here, a tremendous amount of thought must go into it to produce a really impressive end result (granted my statement is the cart before the horse with no dyno results yet but I have been doing this for decades and Im confident this engine will perform if the shortblock is properly built and the engine is properly tuned).
Highlights of the final changes as follows.....we are bumping the static compression a half point or so which picks up the bottom (and the middle and the top)....swapping the FAST back in the mix which will really fatten the bottom and the middle of the torque curve and just makes more sense when we consider that we would never take true advantage of the RPM the MSD really shines....the FAST is just that much better suited to the goals of this build and knowing we have cubes, compression, a really efficient high speed / high volume cathedral port design to work with, and the long runners of the FAST back in the mix, Im much more comfy putting some decent duration in the camshaft and that's the final piece of the puzzle which will help the engine hang on better up top (even with the longer runner FAST) widening what I expect to be a pretty flat torque curve even further.
This approach to the build should get us that fattest curve possible in the range that Peter can utilize with his current automatic driveline (7K or so) and offers the least amount of compromises to the have your cake and eat it to wish-list of goals.
I'm confident the results will impress and I hope Peter finds a way to get this engine bolted to an engine dyno before installing it in the car as that's the only way we will really be able to see its true potential. It wont make hero numbers behind a stalled auto but at the least we will get to see the shape of the curve and compare it all to his former chassis dyno results assuming the same dyno is utilized
Looking forward to all of this coming together
Cheers,
Tony
I really feel I have this combo all sorted out now....even going back on my original decision to go with the MSD.
The new plan is truly a better compromise of all the goals initially set forth.....of course there will always be some compromising when building a stout street engine versus a max effort piece which is much more straightforward in so many respects.
Building powerful street engines that you can live with is much more challenging but its also been one of my specialties for a very long time. Really efficient high flowing heads combined with an optimized induction and valvetrain that create a perfectly optimized combination is the only way this is achieved but sometimes such is the case here, a tremendous amount of thought must go into it to produce a really impressive end result (granted my statement is the cart before the horse with no dyno results yet but I have been doing this for decades and Im confident this engine will perform if the shortblock is properly built and the engine is properly tuned).
Highlights of the final changes as follows.....we are bumping the static compression a half point or so which picks up the bottom (and the middle and the top)....swapping the FAST back in the mix which will really fatten the bottom and the middle of the torque curve and just makes more sense when we consider that we would never take true advantage of the RPM the MSD really shines....the FAST is just that much better suited to the goals of this build and knowing we have cubes, compression, a really efficient high speed / high volume cathedral port design to work with, and the long runners of the FAST back in the mix, Im much more comfy putting some decent duration in the camshaft and that's the final piece of the puzzle which will help the engine hang on better up top (even with the longer runner FAST) widening what I expect to be a pretty flat torque curve even further.
This approach to the build should get us that fattest curve possible in the range that Peter can utilize with his current automatic driveline (7K or so) and offers the least amount of compromises to the have your cake and eat it to wish-list of goals.
I'm confident the results will impress and I hope Peter finds a way to get this engine bolted to an engine dyno before installing it in the car as that's the only way we will really be able to see its true potential. It wont make hero numbers behind a stalled auto but at the least we will get to see the shape of the curve and compare it all to his former chassis dyno results assuming the same dyno is utilized
Looking forward to all of this coming together
Cheers,
Tony
That's exactly what I am after.
I have no access to an engine dyno near me.
Only a roller and hub dyno.
I will be listing the cam specs soon too.
02-18-2020, 05:24 AM
#68
OP just so you know those AFR heads do make great power and excellent torque. We have a 427 dart with untouched AFR 245cc heads other than springs. It is also a Nitrous motor. Our motor made 706HP and 616 torque at the flywheel. It makes all its power by 7000rpm. This is with no spray. This bad boy pulls like a freight train all the way through. Then it really comes alive with spray. We started with a 3600 stall. Went to a 5000 and backed it down to a 4500. Our car weighs 3350 ready to race. We run a CID LS3 intake with ICT billet adaptors to mate the intake to the heads. The motor is 12 to 1 compression and is fed by a 1100 dominator. You would swear its injected with the throttle responce it has. This is on a Nitrous motor. We believe that close to 800 is achievable with an all motor cam. Can get on and off the brake multiple times if needed, with no problems. This year we pulled the intake and did a lot more port work on the adaptors. Took a 1/2 inch more out of the port to completely port match to the head. So there was definitely a restriction there. We also had the heads hand massaged to get all the cnc lines out and smooth things out. Cant wait to see what it does this year. We run a 730 + lift cam with big duration. The heads had the spring pockets opened up to accept the biggest springs I could fit in there. This is the limiting factor on lift for the LS inline head. I will suggest Ferrea super alloy valves for your heads. They can handle 2000 degrees in case you do go boosted. No more money than the rest too. Best of luck to you on this build. Tony will have that thing screaming its guts out no problem. Great guy to work with for sure.
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bortous (05-29-2020)
02-18-2020, 07:22 AM
#69
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
OP just so you know those AFR heads do make great power and excellent torque. We have a 427 dart with untouched AFR 245cc heads other than springs. It is also a Nitrous motor. Our motor made 706HP and 616 torque at the flywheel. It makes all its power by 7000rpm. This is with no spray. This bad boy pulls like a freight train all the way through. Then it really comes alive with spray. We started with a 3600 stall. Went to a 5000 and backed it down to a 4500. Our car weighs 3350 ready to race. We run a CID LS3 intake with ICT billet adaptors to mate the intake to the heads. The motor is 12 to 1 compression and is fed by a 1100 dominator. You would swear its injected with the throttle responce it has. This is on a Nitrous motor. We believe that close to 800 is achievable with an all motor cam. Can get on and off the brake multiple times if needed, with no problems. This year we pulled the intake and did a lot more port work on the adaptors. Took a 1/2 inch more out of the port to completely port match to the head. So there was definitely a restriction there. We also had the heads hand massaged to get all the cnc lines out and smooth things out. Cant wait to see what it does this year. We run a 730 + lift cam with big duration. The heads had the spring pockets opened up to accept the biggest springs I could fit in there. This is the limiting factor on lift for the LS inline head. I will suggest Ferrea super alloy valves for your heads. They can handle 2000 degrees in case you do go boosted. No more money than the rest too. Best of luck to you on this build. Tony will have that thing screaming its guts out no problem. Great guy to work with for sure.
That's a very strong running motor.
Mine should turn out that way also.
What were the cam specs?
I'm curious to see how much mine will make as we have a similar combo.
Almost the same compression too.
I love that comment about the freight train like pull to 7000rpm.
That's exactly what I am after.
I won't go nitrous or forced induction with my automatic and driveline.
If these were updated, maybe, but for the street It will already be crazy enough.
I don't know about 800hp NA with these heads.
Maybe a larger engine, huge cam and more compression and a different intake might get you there.
02-18-2020, 07:57 AM
#71
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I don't know if it's been covered yet, but on the cam, a few things to consider:
a 245cc cathedral head on a large motor is going to have crazy airspeed. Especially if it's an AFR casting. This will somewhat mechanically tame the cam. As a result, you'll want a little more intake duration than you might think. Also, since your RPM goals are not stratospheric, you do not need a really wide split like you tend to see speced in larger motors. All that extra exhaust duration usually helps power carry past peak, which really is not where you're going to live. This thing, if you ever run at the track, is likely going to be a 6800-7200 shift point, flashing down to 5200 on the upshift, unless you run a **** for a converter, in which case it'll flash to 6K on the upshift and stay right in the power band. Given that, I would be looking at almost a single-pattern cam. Small split. 4-8 degrees. If you keep the converter tight, then even more reason to not go too crazy on the exhaust duration, because you'll want the torque to climb that RPM hill again.
a 245cc cathedral head on a large motor is going to have crazy airspeed. Especially if it's an AFR casting. This will somewhat mechanically tame the cam. As a result, you'll want a little more intake duration than you might think. Also, since your RPM goals are not stratospheric, you do not need a really wide split like you tend to see speced in larger motors. All that extra exhaust duration usually helps power carry past peak, which really is not where you're going to live. This thing, if you ever run at the track, is likely going to be a 6800-7200 shift point, flashing down to 5200 on the upshift, unless you run a **** for a converter, in which case it'll flash to 6K on the upshift and stay right in the power band. Given that, I would be looking at almost a single-pattern cam. Small split. 4-8 degrees. If you keep the converter tight, then even more reason to not go too crazy on the exhaust duration, because you'll want the torque to climb that RPM hill again.
02-18-2020, 08:12 AM
#72
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
Mine was fully rebuilt to maximum specification about 5 years ago.
When it was serviced last year I was told it still looks new inside.
Is this what you were wanting me to expound upon?
02-18-2020, 08:17 AM
#73
I'm saying that the 4L65E does not like to be revved out too far. 6500 is stock. Going to 7000rpm should be fine.
Mine was fully rebuilt to maximum specification about 5 years ago.
When it was serviced last year I was told it still looks new inside.
Is this what you were wanting me to expound upon?
Mine was fully rebuilt to maximum specification about 5 years ago.
When it was serviced last year I was told it still looks new inside.
Is this what you were wanting me to expound upon?
02-18-2020, 08:40 AM
#74
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
I don't know if it's been covered yet, but on the cam, a few things to consider:
a 245cc cathedral head on a large motor is going to have crazy airspeed. Especially if it's an AFR casting. This will somewhat mechanically tame the cam. As a result, you'll want a little more intake duration than you might think. Also, since your RPM goals are not stratospheric, you do not need a really wide split like you tend to see speced in larger motors. All that extra exhaust duration usually helps power carry past peak, which really is not where you're going to live. This thing, if you ever run at the track, is likely going to be a 6800-7200 shift point, flashing down to 5200 on the upshift, unless you run a **** for a converter, in which case it'll flash to 6K on the upshift and stay right in the power band. Given that, I would be looking at almost a single-pattern cam. Small split. 4-8 degrees. If you keep the converter tight, then even more reason to not go too crazy on the exhaust duration, because you'll want the torque to climb that RPM hill again.
a 245cc cathedral head on a large motor is going to have crazy airspeed. Especially if it's an AFR casting. This will somewhat mechanically tame the cam. As a result, you'll want a little more intake duration than you might think. Also, since your RPM goals are not stratospheric, you do not need a really wide split like you tend to see speced in larger motors. All that extra exhaust duration usually helps power carry past peak, which really is not where you're going to live. This thing, if you ever run at the track, is likely going to be a 6800-7200 shift point, flashing down to 5200 on the upshift, unless you run a **** for a converter, in which case it'll flash to 6K on the upshift and stay right in the power band. Given that, I would be looking at almost a single-pattern cam. Small split. 4-8 degrees. If you keep the converter tight, then even more reason to not go too crazy on the exhaust duration, because you'll want the torque to climb that RPM hill again.
AFR are the best cathedral head out there.
A wide split is certainly not necessary with this setup but a single pattern camshaft will not hang that well up top. Some split will be needed.
Also I am not racing the vehicle either but I do get the points you are making.
4-8 degrees is most likely where I need to be.
02-18-2020, 09:26 AM
#75
Oh wow.
That's a very strong running motor.
Mine should turn out that way also.
I love that comment about the freight train like pull to 7000rpm.
That's exactly what I am after. I won't go nitrous or forced induction with my automatic and driveline If you are running a 4l60E and a ten bolt they will not survive with that motor alone.
I don't know about 800hp N/A with these heads.
Maybe not eight but dam close to it. These heads flow a lot better than most will ever say.
AFR gives you flow numbers @.650 lift. All the others are giving specs @ .700 or .750 lift. Maybe a larger engine, huge cam and more compression and a different intake might get you there.
That's a very strong running motor.
Mine should turn out that way also.
I love that comment about the freight train like pull to 7000rpm.
That's exactly what I am after. I won't go nitrous or forced induction with my automatic and driveline If you are running a 4l60E and a ten bolt they will not survive with that motor alone.
I don't know about 800hp N/A with these heads.
Maybe not eight but dam close to it. These heads flow a lot better than most will ever say.
AFR gives you flow numbers @.650 lift. All the others are giving specs @ .700 or .750 lift. Maybe a larger engine, huge cam and more compression and a different intake might get you there.
making that power.
02-18-2020, 09:50 AM
#76
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
02-18-2020, 09:56 AM
#77
We drive ours around all the time. Runs great. We can start it in 50 degree weather and immediately drop it into gear and it will sit there and idle fine with no lag or stumbling when giving it throttle. We run a Coan 4500 stall billet converter. When driving around you can't even tell its a stall till you hit it. When we had the 3600 in there it was sluggish out of the hole. If your wife has never driven a car with a motor at this level I wouldn't just turn her loose on the street. Took my wife for a ride and her reply was I will never get in that thing with you again. Lol Problem solved. Hey I don't ask to go with her to Bunco and she don't ask to go with me racing. WIn Win. Lol That car will become a gash magnet. The chics nowadays are not bashful. The first time your woman sees this you are screwed and I don't mean getting some. Tried telling many people before and most are either divorced or sold their cars to keep from being so. Lol
02-18-2020, 10:12 AM
#78
TECH Veteran
AFR heads and single pattern duration cams equals steak and potatos.
02-18-2020, 10:14 AM
#79
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
We drive ours around all the time. Runs great. We can start it in 50 degree weather and immediately drop it into gear and it will sit there and idle fine with no lag or stumbling when giving it throttle. We run a Coan 4500 stall billet converter. When driving around you can't even tell its a stall till you hit it. When we had the 3600 in there it was sluggish out of the hole. If your wife has never driven a car with a motor at this level I wouldn't just turn her loose on the street. Took my wife for a ride and her reply was I will never get in that thing with you again. Lol Problem solved. Hey I don't ask to go with her to Bunco and she don't ask to go with me racing. WIn Win. Lol That car will become a gash magnet. The chics nowadays are not bashful. The first time your woman sees this you are screwed and I don't mean getting some. Tried telling many people before and most are either divorced or sold their cars to keep from being so. Lol
I'm single and don't plan on selling my car for any woman.
If she would make you sell it because she doesn't like it she ain't worth it. Don't let any woman dictate what you should or shouldn't do. You take the reigns but make sure her needs are met of course.
A car that instills fear in others is a good thing.
I think a 3600rpm is just perfect for a street car and for my build.
02-18-2020, 10:18 AM
#80
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