Hi guys,

I’m after some opinions on how to best tackle my problem.

Ultimately I’ve told my engine builder to give his opinion on what to do, as he has to fix it. Having said that I want to educate myself in the process and get your opinions which can hopefully conclude a general consensus.

My engine is a built LS with a 2.9L Whipple, which I will summarise below using my stock GM E38 ecu.

The car was previously NA, so the initial start up was done at my tuner, where he changed the settings in HP tuners to allow for the new larger injectors, new map sensor etc etc Essentially making it safe to start.

We started the engine up, adjusted some more parameters letting the engine warm up, all vitals were good, getting up to operating temperature with a healthy 4 bar of oil pressure. (The engine was oil primed properly prior to start up)

Once we reached this point, we started to increase the rpm to 2000-2500. This is when we started to hear what I think sounds like a lifter noise, it was a loud horrible mechanical clacking noise. When dropping down to idle it disappeared and then came back but not immediately on higher rpm, meaning it was not consistent. We stopped and switched off at this time as we did not want to cause any potential damage.

The engine had been running for less than 5mins for its first time ever.

As said it’s my builder responsibility, but I would like to know how best one should look at this to fix it. I want to take the zero risk path as I have too much money in this build and can’t afford for failures.

All input/feedback will be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Here is a summary of the build:
ALL PARTS ARE NEW

-LQ4 block bored to 4.030
-Stock L77 crank
-Summit forged connecting rods
-Summit forged -12cc dished pistons
-Summit matched rings
-Clevite bearings
-ARP studs used
-0.051” Cometic head gaskets
-Melling high flow/pressure oil pump
-OE lifter buckets
-Delphi LS7 lifters
-OE rockers with trunnion upgrade
-Tick performance pushrods
-BTR dual valve springs
-BTR PDS cam
-821 casting ported heads
Calculated compression ratio 9.3:1

 

Sounds like a failed lifter out of the box. Definitely don't run it anymore. You should be able to narrow it down to which one(s) are causing the noise. Let the car sit overnight. pull the valve covers off and check to see if any rockers have excessive lash/movement. It's not an uncommon failure, although it does suck. I recommend going with Morel drop-in lifters.

 

And.... Cut the filter open.

 

I agree with the previous recommendations. You could also remove the intake and valley cover tray. When they rebuild the motor, did they use GM trays? Anything other than GM trays are a crapshoot.

 

Thanks for the replies so far. Yes genuine new GM lifter buckets were used.

Once we start to open things up, I will post what we find/what the outcome is.

 

The fact that it stopped, then came back, makes me think it may be a broken valvespring. This sounds exactly like my first 427, a Darton back in 2005. Valvespring broke at approx 2,500rpm, as I left a stop sign for work @5:00 A.M.. 300 miles on engine. Not saying that is what it is, but what it could be. I heard it immediately. All of a sudden, a loud WHACK WHACK WHACK!! Then nothing. Then another WHACK WHACK. Hope this helps, and best of luck to you. Like old McDonald..... Here a whack there a whack, everywhere a WHACK WHACK!!!!

 

At least he’s trying to get it resolved vs. continuing to drive it.

 

Okay some more developments. After start motor and battery issues, my engine builder has only now been able to listen to the noise and do some digging.

Valve covers came off, inspected everything properly, all clearances look good, lash looks good and nothing damaged.

Spark was cut on each cylinder and this did not change the sound of the noise at all.

His thinking is that the oil pressure is too high when rpm reaches 2500 and this is causing the lifters to ‘max’ out.

Does this sound like a possibility?

We are going to fit a mechanical oil pressure gauge to confirm what the pressure is, my car does not have a gauge in the cluster, only an idiot light.

I have a Melling 10296 oil pump fitted which is the high volume, high pressure pump, with the supplied spring in it, which is the highest pressure option.

Just to confirm again, I have new Delphi LS7 lifter, new lifter buckets, 7.475” pushrods, 0.645” dual springs and matching cam.

All thoughts/experience will be appreciated.

 

"We are going to fit a mechanical oil pressure gauge to confirm what the pressure is, my car does not have a gauge in the cluster, only an idiot light".
"His thinking is that the oil pressure is too high when rpm reaches 2500 and this is causing the lifters to ‘max’ out".
That alone leads me to wonder about your "engine builder" doing a T/S session without such.
Even worse, "building" anyone's engine......

 

I agree with old buzzard. Never heard of oil pressure so high (define high) it maxed out the lifters, whatever "maxed" out is. I've run a Melling 10296 since to 2005. Never heard of this issue. Again, have you closely inspected the valve springs? I had dual springs that were supposed to be good to .650" lift. Broke an outer spring withing 300 miles of first start, at only 2,000 rpm! What springs are you running? You probably either have a lifter that won't pump up properly, or a bad spring. My .02....

 

Just to be clear, everything was closely monitored on the initial dyno run and everything was within spec. A mechanical oil gauge was fitted to just confirm the reading in HP tuners, which turns out is exactly the same.

Lifters used are Brain Tooley Delphi LS7 lifters.

Springs used are 0.645” lift dual spring Brain Tooley.

Considering how meticulous everything was put together and no old parts used, a failed lifter is what makes the most sense to me. The valve covers came off- lash, springs, rockers etc all look fine.

Next question is, what lifters do I replace it with as I’m certainly not going for the same type again. Do I go the expensive Johnson route, or is the Mortel option fine which I believe is the Summit performance LS7 lifter?

As I’m in South Africa, getting parts here isn’t quick or cheap so I have to plan properly and get the stuff first time.

thanks in advance,
Rob

 

Either Cadillac racing lifters or Johnson 2110r (or Kaytech 2110 K) lifters is what I would use. There are some reports of about a 10psi drop in oil pressure with the 2210r lifters, however Kaytech has 2110 K lifters that are made to their specs that supposedly address that issue. The Johnsons lifters are on the expensive side, the Cadillac racing lifters are priced about half way between LS7 and Johnson lifters with the Kaytech Johnson's running about $100 more.

I spent the extra for the Johnson 2110r lifters for piece of mind. I would have went with the Kaytech 2110 K lifters if I had known about them at the time I was building my LS3.

Regarding oil pressure... I have ~ 75 psi (cold) idle and drops to ~ 28-30 psi when hot (oil 220*) running Royal Purple HPS 10-40w. Pressure easily rises to 60-75 psi as revs get over 2500 with a Melling's high pressure oil pump (COPO spring). Rod and main bearings were in excellent condition and were reused with 0.0017- 0.0020 oil clearance on the rods and 0.0019 - 0.0021 for the mains.

Kaytech Johnson Lifters

 

Final update...

My engine was opened and throughly checked through, there was no evident issues seen or found. The engine was then put back together with new head gaskets and new Morel lifters, put back in my car, started up and no more dodgy noises.

We can put this down as a failed lifter(s) straight out the box as @Jayyyw originally suggested.

For clarity it was brand new Delphi LS7 lifters that failed straight out the box.

Thanks for all the advice and replies, much appreciated!

 

Have the correct pushrod lengths been verified? Did the oil pressure change when the noise started?

 

Did your bad lifter(s) start the ticking when engine warmed up, or was it there even cold? I have an unusual issue in my LS7. Engine is fine until coolant reaches 165°-170°, then one lifter starts ticking. I thought maybe I had measured a bit short on PR length, and I was losing preload on one lifter as it warmed up. So I bought PRs approximately. 030" longer. Made no difference! So I'm thinking I may have a stuck lifter. Nothing is hitting/interfering with anything.....

 

@grinder11 For your Specific issue, Try draining about 1 Quart of oil and add either 1 Quart of tranny fluid or Marvel Mystery oil and see if the issue continues.

 

Thank you for your response. The lifters are brand new, FWIW. Only around 350-400 miles on them....

 

No problem! Even though this is new, This will let you know if its a simple debris issue or a mechanical issue that requires you to tear deeper into it.

If it seems to clear up, You have some type of debris issue.
If it Does Not, there is some type of mechanical issue that requires further inspection.

I believe I have almost 2 quarts of marvel mystery oil in mine right now. Only because the vehicle is in storage and it needs an oil change anyway. I was previously running it on E85 then switched back to gas.
How ever it has an oil leak that I believe is at the rear main, the Oil pan also needs to be re-sealed, and the oil pump O-ring needs to be replaced.

Just idling it would start getting noisy when it got up to temp. Sometimes it would sound like it droped a cylinder. Was already low from oil leak and already had the MM oil so I topped it off with a quart of that. Seemed to go away for a while till I took it out for a drive after replacing the master cylinder. So I dumped another quart in and now it's gone. I like to start it every few weeks. I occasionally take it around the block to keep things lubed and rotating. Just don't have time to work on it right now so it sits.

 

We have the same cam. Have you ever thought of calling BTR and asking why their cams are so damned noisy and of course, should you be worried? I don't like the noise either. In fact I don't like it enough to the point I would have rejected a BTR cam in favor of another w/out this issue had I known.

 

UPDATE!!!!
Even though this isn't my thread, the info I'm going to post may help some. My "lifter" noise was in fact a number 1 cylinder rocker arm lightly tapping the valve cover. It only did this when everything was warmed up completely. It was so marginal that if you shut the engine off for 5-10 seconds, then restarted it, the lifters would bleed down maybe .005"-.010" and the noise wouldn't come back until the engine ran for, oh, maybe 10 seconds!! I diagnosed this with a stethoscope. I'm running PAC 1205 springs and YT rockers. Yes, I have the thick cover gaskets. I got new thick gaskets and didn't tighten them down quite as tight as I did before. No more noise. Hope this helps someone......