Hmmm...so I just heard there will be a 500hp and 550hp LS7
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Unfortunately, Hp/L must be a slowly diminishing factor according to the Euro exotic car manufacturers.
Just from reading here:
http://www.maserati.com.au/maserati/frame.asp
http://www.forbes.com/2004/10/15/cx_dl_1018feat.html
It seems like enlagring displacement has manifested itself with other designs too. If you now look at the newest Ferrari, M-B, BMW, Audi, and Porsche has to offer, they too seem to find that displacement becomes awfully hard to compromise when it comes to performance. Yes, they have made higher Hp/L from their designs over the years, but then again their gas mileage suffered until they too compromised some aspect of eliminating the number of valves and even more drastically, forced induction in the name of performance. Just look at the designs of their "standard exotics" and their "rare exotics".
Also, the real potential of a higher Hp/L engine would be if it is indeed small enough to fit into a small chassis. If that's the case, then how come there have been articles in some magazines where a retrofitted LS1 fits inside (minimal shoehorning is should mention) some of the smaller Japanese performance coupes ever produced (Nissan/Datsun Z's and Mazda RX's). Heck, even some of these retrofitted cars haven't even lost important creature comforts in the retrofit process.
We also should remember the venverable LT5/ZR-1 engine programme offered. Not only did that engine have a higher Hp/L compared to the LS2, but it also was heavier, more expensive, and more complicated, not to mention poor gas mileage.
Even though some enthusiasts would crack on GM for what they offer compared to let's say Ford, factory high performance does come at a significant cost. Ford and Diamler-Chrysler offer high performance out their doors, but in the past they have paid dearly.
Lastly, factory gas mileage is very important, as it has proven to make a car have greater range for the gas tank capacity. If performance is indeed needed, I'm pretty sure that there will be not shortage of reliable aftermarket tuners with substantial warranties to safeguard their work.
Just from reading here:
http://www.maserati.com.au/maserati/frame.asp
http://www.forbes.com/2004/10/15/cx_dl_1018feat.html
It seems like enlagring displacement has manifested itself with other designs too. If you now look at the newest Ferrari, M-B, BMW, Audi, and Porsche has to offer, they too seem to find that displacement becomes awfully hard to compromise when it comes to performance. Yes, they have made higher Hp/L from their designs over the years, but then again their gas mileage suffered until they too compromised some aspect of eliminating the number of valves and even more drastically, forced induction in the name of performance. Just look at the designs of their "standard exotics" and their "rare exotics".
Also, the real potential of a higher Hp/L engine would be if it is indeed small enough to fit into a small chassis. If that's the case, then how come there have been articles in some magazines where a retrofitted LS1 fits inside (minimal shoehorning is should mention) some of the smaller Japanese performance coupes ever produced (Nissan/Datsun Z's and Mazda RX's). Heck, even some of these retrofitted cars haven't even lost important creature comforts in the retrofit process.
We also should remember the venverable LT5/ZR-1 engine programme offered. Not only did that engine have a higher Hp/L compared to the LS2, but it also was heavier, more expensive, and more complicated, not to mention poor gas mileage.
Even though some enthusiasts would crack on GM for what they offer compared to let's say Ford, factory high performance does come at a significant cost. Ford and Diamler-Chrysler offer high performance out their doors, but in the past they have paid dearly.
Lastly, factory gas mileage is very important, as it has proven to make a car have greater range for the gas tank capacity. If performance is indeed needed, I'm pretty sure that there will be not shortage of reliable aftermarket tuners with substantial warranties to safeguard their work.
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Tony, you're still missing the point... the point is that while hp/L is all well and good to brag about, it doesn't get you down the track any faster. For a given vehicle weight/configuration, all that matters is power.
As for the mileage ratings, I agree... any vehicle can be driven to perform better or worse than the EPA ratings... but since we don't all own all of the cars in question, we can't very well offer personal experience, now can we?? All we can do is look at a uniform test under uniform conditions... which is the EPA test. Granted, the EPA test has little to do with real world driving conditions, but that's not the point... the point is that it's the same test for all vehicles sold in the US.
As for the mileage ratings, I agree... any vehicle can be driven to perform better or worse than the EPA ratings... but since we don't all own all of the cars in question, we can't very well offer personal experience, now can we?? All we can do is look at a uniform test under uniform conditions... which is the EPA test. Granted, the EPA test has little to do with real world driving conditions, but that's not the point... the point is that it's the same test for all vehicles sold in the US.
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I know, but I just wanted to be sarcastic, since that was a common argument that quite a few Euro/Japanese enthusiasts used to argue and never realise what it was for. Those who seem to feel that European and Japanese Engineers have all of the "advanced designs" are somewhat correct, but the real question is, "Are the designs efficient in the manner needed for the end user?"
#67
Originally Posted by Foxxton
It seems like enlagring displacement has manifested itself with other designs too. If you now look at the newest Ferrari, M-B, BMW, Audi, and Porsche has to offer, they too seem to find that displacement becomes awfully hard to compromise when it comes to performance. Yes, they have made higher Hp/L from their designs over the years, but then again their gas mileage suffered until they too compromised some aspect of eliminating the number of valves and even more drastically, forced induction in the name of performance. Just look at the designs of their "standard exotics" and their "rare exotics".
#68
Originally Posted by Tony Montana
Well I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of exotics come out of Europe. Also the 4.3L in the F430 produces 490hp.....compared to 500 from an LS7. That isn't far off 120hp/L. Thats an astronomical difference, and it's not only Ferrari doing this. You'll see similar figures from the new M5. I fully expect the next M3 to have a HP/L that will put the LS7 to shame also. Which is why I hope the aftermarket will take on the task of improving on the LS7 so those of us who don't have money to by an M3 can have fun too.
#69
Oh, and for the record: My personal stance on the matter is that I hope the LS7 will have a lot of displacement, be affordable, and be largely interchangable with LS series parts.
And will fit into my engine bay nicely.
And will fit into my engine bay nicely.
#70
Originally Posted by Tony Montana
Well I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of exotics come out of Europe. Also the 4.3L in the F430 produces 490hp.....compared to 500 from an LS7. That isn't far off 120hp/L. Thats an astronomical difference, and it's not only Ferrari doing this. You'll see similar figures from the new M5. I fully expect the next M3 to have a HP/L that will put the LS7 to shame also. Which is why I hope the aftermarket will take on the task of improving on the LS7 so those of us who don't have money to by an M3 can have fun too.
How are you going to afford a C6 Z06 Corvette if you can't afford an M3?
HP/L
It's useless. It doesn't mean jack ****. It really, really doesn't.
By the way, ALL of those motors you just mentioned will have worse fuel economy than the LS7.
#71
Originally Posted by Velocity
How are you going to afford a C6 Z06 Corvette if you can't afford an M3?
HP/L
It's useless. It doesn't mean jack ****. It really, really doesn't.
By the way, ALL of those motors you just mentioned will have worse fuel economy than the LS7.
HP/L
It's useless. It doesn't mean jack ****. It really, really doesn't.
By the way, ALL of those motors you just mentioned will have worse fuel economy than the LS7.
Also for velocity and others, you can purchase engines without the cars . I am sure it won't take long until some guy thinking he has an exotic smashes his vette while racing an M3 or porsche, etc. Thats where I pounce and get his LS7 on the cheap
And if you think HP/L is useless, I must wonder what you do know...because even the people who have brought up real arguments in this thread wouldn't call it useless (at least I hope so)
#73
Originally Posted by Tony Montana
If all you do is cruise at 1500rpm in 6th gear, I am sure they will...but on the track things would change FAST
And if you think HP/L is useless, I must wonder what you do know...because even the people who have brought up real arguments in this thread wouldn't call it useless (at least I hope so)
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hp/L is completely useless. Or, actually, it's exactly as useful as tq/RPM... let's see, the S2000 motor makes a peak of 162 lb-ft and has a redline of 8000 RPM. So, doing a little math, we see... ummm, carry the two... a torque to RPM ratio of .02025 lb-ft for every RPM (.02025 tq/RPM). Frankly, I think Honda can do better. I mean, a lowly truck engine makes .1875 tq/RPM, so it must be better for performance, right??
See how completely useless that is??
See how completely useless that is??
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Originally Posted by Tony Montana
Well I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of exotics come out of Europe. Also the 4.3L in the F430 produces 490hp.....compared to 500 from an LS7. That isn't far off 120hp/L. Thats an astronomical difference, and it's not only Ferrari doing this. You'll see similar figures from the new M5. I fully expect the next M3 to have a HP/L that will put the LS7 to shame also. Which is why I hope the aftermarket will take on the task of improving on the LS7 so those of us who don't have money to by an M3 can have fun too.
and briefly onto another tangent: since when are people looking at $60,000+ 7.0L muscle cars concerned with 1.) hp/L and 2.) gas mileage?
[Edit] just read this genius comment
If all you do is cruise at 1500rpm in 6th gear, I am sure they will...but on the track things would change FAST
are you talking about gas mileage while racing?
Last edited by LSONE; 11-18-2004 at 11:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by CamaroJoe
Gasoline engines use approximately .5lb of fuel/Hp/Hr with some very efficient engines getting into the .45 lb/hp/hr area.
This is a fact that you cant get away from, it doesn't matter how big or small the engine or whether it is NA or blown, if it is tuned correctly and the A/F ratio is correct it will use about this much fuel.
Of course it doesn't take much Hp to run a car at constant speed so we are not always at WOT.
Actually the LS1 is an extremely efficient engine and does not get hit with a gas guzzler tax. Also it is a very clean running engine and has a federal low emission rating allowing the elimination of EGR.
Now beyond all that if your still worried about fuel economy Honda makes nice reliable cars for transportation
This is a fact that you cant get away from, it doesn't matter how big or small the engine or whether it is NA or blown, if it is tuned correctly and the A/F ratio is correct it will use about this much fuel.
Of course it doesn't take much Hp to run a car at constant speed so we are not always at WOT.
Actually the LS1 is an extremely efficient engine and does not get hit with a gas guzzler tax. Also it is a very clean running engine and has a federal low emission rating allowing the elimination of EGR.
Now beyond all that if your still worried about fuel economy Honda makes nice reliable cars for transportation
I posted that to him the other day and it likely went right over his head.
Oh well.
Gas milage while racing
GM has spent well over a Billion $ developing the Generation III engine and it has recieved nothing but praise.
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Originally Posted by Tony Montana
Well I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of exotics come out of Europe. Also the 4.3L in the F430 produces 490hp.....compared to 500 from an LS7. That isn't far off 120hp/L. Thats an astronomical difference, and it's not only Ferrari doing this. You'll see similar figures from the new M5. I fully expect the next M3 to have a HP/L that will put the LS7 to shame also. Which is why I hope the aftermarket will take on the task of improving on the LS7 so those of us who don't have money to by an M3 can have fun too.
HP/L means **** all.
My friends Yamaha R1 has 180 HP @ 12500 RPM or so out of 1L, how would it do at pulling a 3000+ pound car down the road?
Torque is what moves the car. People in general are so enamored with HP when torque is really what matters.
HP is merely a function of Torque, HP=TQxRPM/5252.
High school physics.
So is a broad flat torque curve better for acceleration and drivabilty or a peaky one?
On the street the 7L will rule especially once I'm done modding it a bit
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the 7.0L c5r's seem to do ok at lemans against the turbo porsches and ferraris with much smaller motors. i guess the overwhelming displacement advantage makes up for all the extra gas pit stops