Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

I just purchased an LS2 block to do R&D on. I should have some info in a couple of weeks on whether the current MID sleeves will work. If not it will be roughly two months before Darton can gear up with a new set for the LS2. Should be available right around the same time the 4.200" MID sleeves come out.

When I do the R&D I'm going to take a good look at the construction of the block. I'm really curious whether the block does indeed have sufficient material to support a dry sleeve at 4.125" or larger bore. If so I will most likely offer a dry sleeved block option myself.

The problem with dry sleeving the LS1 LS6 blocks is related to not having sufficient wall thickness in the sleeve or sufficient thickness in the surrounding aluminum to support the sleeve. Even if the sleeve doesn't drop, it will not stay round. You are left with a sleeve with only a .065" thick wall @ 4.125" bore with almost nothing left of the original aluminum bore to keep it round. This is the reason why we developed the MID sleeve. The MID does not rely on any parent wall to hold it in place. Wall thickness is over .200" @ 4.125" bore. And contrary to what Mikey says the o'rings do not leak, never have. Every diesel truck on the road uses the exact same system of wet sleeves and orings to seal them, not to mention, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Maseratti.

I dry sleeve many blocks here. I did two today in fact, a Subaru and a Nissan SR20. The Subaru uses a dry sleeve with an outside diameter of 4.250" with a bore size of 3.940". This leaves a sleeve wall thickness of .155" along with a sufficient amount of aluminum to keep the sleeve in place. These Subaru engines have been built with these sleeves to more than a thousand horsepower with no failures.

I also do Viper blocks with dry sleeves and wet sleeves of my own design. The Viper block is not a cheap piece. Price is similar to the C5R block. These blocks have pressed in dry liners from the factory. They are fine until you put nitrous or boost to them. The dry liners I use are 4.254" OD with a max. bore size of 4.080". That leaves a wall thickness of .087". I do not like to go under .090" in wall thickness so this is the absolute maximum bore size one can use with this sleeve. Now the Viper blocks of late have been beefed up. The earlier blocks broke cylinder walls. The newer Gen III blocks have thicker thrust walls than the Gen II blocks. The problem is the blocks are no thicker between the sleeves so the max. safe dry bore remains at 4.080" with a max. safe sleeve OD of 4.254". If a customer wants a larger bore, my wet sleeve will safely go to 4.155" bore 4.200" bore as soon as the new Darton blanks arrive. One of my blocks is putting out 960 HP at the wheels for over six months of street use. This guy beats the crap of this car.

The wet liner is the only way to go for reliable max. power.

I also want to point out that the main reason the dry sleeved LS1 blocks drop sleeves is the shelf the sleeve sits on is not sufficiently wide. With a sleeve body of 4.273" and flange diameter of 4.380" the shelf is only .0535" wide. This is what is holding the dry sleeve in place. That is simply not wide enough! My Vipers use a 4.500" flange with 4.254" body. That leaves a seat width of almost .125". This is more like it. Any less than .100" seating width for the flange should be viewed as suspect. We did a lot of testing with this so we know what will work and what won't work.

There is a trick to the way a dry sleeve is made and installed which will prevent leaks. I will not explain this as this is proprietary info.

Steve

mikey

iTrader: (6)

Steve - I didn't mean to step on your toes. You've perfected the MID system to a science. I saw it at PRI and was extremely impressed with your work. I guess my concern is longevity of the o-ring seal. For me it doesn't matter. Blocks to me are throw away items every two years. The folks here that are doing my machine work are well known hemi builders for many years. They sort of scared me away from wet sleeving while sharing some bad experiences they've had with some custom Keith Black hemi's which were also wet sleeved and o-ring sealed. Maybe my concerns are not justified.

What in your opinion, is the life of the o-ring? Maybe based on mtbf? Also, if one was to run a vac pump would that adversely affect the seal of the o-ring or enhance it?

Also JS mentioned a 0 PSI rad cap. I had not heard that. Is that necessary? I already know about the Evans coolant.

Again, I didn't mean to step on your toes at all. You seem to be one of two shops that have perfected the MID process. Others seem to be struggling a bit and I assume this is due to the lack of a CNC mill.

Have you had any serious HP LS1 MID's? Anyone in the 8's or 9's?

Any status on the Darton 4.200" sleeve?

SLED28

iTrader: (7)

Steve I disagree with you. Check your Private Mail. i get different calcs then you have and ours work! How can you say you know the 'tricks'.
Should also start a new thread and not hi-jack this one!

cyphur

iTrader: (10)

He knows the 'tricks' because he designed the ****** system. Guess you're not up to speed huh? Steve is THE MAN when it comes to sleeving. Ask anyone who's been around for a few minutes.

11 Bravo

iTrader: (3)

Anyone who wants to argue with Steve on this subject don't know what they're stepping into lol

SLED28

iTrader: (7)

For your info I have been involved with sleeving LS1 blocks both wet & dry from back in 98/99. (first ever sleeved ls1 block and 434 running) Warbird ring a bell?

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Good luck, y'all. As the previous owner of a dry-sleeve LS1 block, I personally had pretty bad luck. I can't say my new MID wet sleeve is perfect either, as I have only put a total of 200 miles on it.

Warantees are nice, but if you live 2000 miles from the shop and install the motor yourself, the price of just fixing the block is actually only a small part of the equation.

After the money Ive spent on transport and other parts, I would have had a C5R block paid for. Live and learn I guess. Now I just have a car that I'll be nervous about essentially as long as I own it.

Net out... Find out everything you can from others who have done this. The LS2 may be different... but just hearing that it is and some speak about proprietary techniques can't substitute for good research.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Gee, I've been sleeving blocks since '74, probably before many of you guys were born!

In any case, we designed the MID sleeves to get around inherent problems with dry sleeving the LS1 style blocks to larger bores sizes. These blocks can be dry sleeved successfully back to standard bore or slightly larger, but when you try and push the envelope it becomes a crap shoot on whether the sleeve will stay in place and or stay round.

The MID sleeve does away with the block trying to support the liner body or the deck trying to hold the sleeve from dropping. The MID sleeve sits on the bottom of the coolant jacket on a seat that is over .200" wide. It can not drop if properly installed. The sleeve body is over .200" thick ductile iron. It will withstand any amount of boost.

One of the main features of the MID sleeve is the coolant groove in the sleeve flange. We came up with this design to help cool the hottest part of the cylinder wall to help control detonation. That groove along with the coolant holes in it are the basis of the patent we hold. Other sleeve suppliers like the idea so much they have come up with similar designs for their Honda sleeves. As I have mentioned here many times, the little Honda engines can and have been built to a thousand plus horsepower for drap strip use.

Regarding Mikey's questions about o'ring life, etc. I have refitted some of the early Honda blocks I did back in 2000. The orings were like new. Bottom line is the orings will most likely outlast the rest of the motor.

Judsen's school car (SAM) ran both dry and MID blocks for their school test car. The dry sleeved block needed a big vacuum pump to control the excessive blow by. When they switched to the MID block they used the same vacuum pump set up as on the dry sleeved block. They generated so much vacuum that they had problems with the bearings, wrist pins. This because the MID block sealed up so much better. Bottom line is the MID sleeves stay rounder and do not require as large a pump to pull the same vacuum. Vacuum has no influence on the orings.

Another question was about the Evans coolant. You do not have to run zero coolant pressure. Generally we use a seven pound cap but the stock cap will work just fine. Obviously there is less chance of blowing a hose off with a seven pound cap than with a twenty pound cap.

One problem area I am working on is for those guys that run their cars strictly on the race track. Most tracks require water or water with wetter, no antifreeze. The sleeves tend to rust pretty quickly in water. We will be experimenting with various surface coatings, plating of the sleeve exteriors shortly so Darton can offer this as an option for track only cars.

Someone questioned me about why I would bother offering a dry sleeve alternative to the MID sleeve on the LS2 assuming I am confident the large bore dry sleeve is viable. The reason is price. A lot of guys would like an MID large bore but the price is a bit out of reach. One can ask why buy Chinese rods and cranks instead of American made components. Could it be the Chinese products are cheaper? A dry sleeve is much simpler to make and therefore a lot less expensive than the MID sleeve. Installation probably near the same but the difference in sleeve price is substantial.

Nate has some serious blower motors out there with MID sleeves. Perhaps he can chime in.

I better get out and get some work done.

Steve

JS

iTrader: (4)

Steve,why did Evans way back in 97 tell me to run a 0 PSI cap with my modified pump and thier coolant on my Nitrous LT1?

Steve are u saying the dry sleeve LS2 is at least looking promising?I still say the C5R is the best way to go but again its $$$$,I'd love to build a dry sleeved 4XXin. LS2 and not have to run Evans,special pumps or worry about dropping sleeves.

This is a good post...

chevydan

iTrader: (4)

Gees at 3395.00 for the dry sleeve ls2 that is not much of a price break over the darton mid

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

One of my good friends and clients has used Evans in off road race engines since they first came out with the stuff. You are right, the older Evans ran with essentially an open system, zero pressure. They changed the formulation since '97 however. You can still run zero pressure but it is no longer required.

Evans is a great company to deal with by the way. They listen and go out of their way to lend a hand. They are helping me out big time with radiators and such for a Ferrari 308 project I am currently working on.

Steve

texada

iTrader: (3)

It is actually higher

cyphur

iTrader: (10)

This price INCLUDES the brand new LS2 block. So subtract ~$800 and you get the actual sleeving price.

JS

iTrader: (4)

I'm waiting til steve gives the info on the dry sleeves

mikey

iTrader: (6)

The blocks are closer to $1000.