DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

Sounds like his car has gears, if so that will make all the difference.

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

Uh . . . if either car had aftermarket gears, I would have mentioned that

Re-read the post dude; I didn't make it sound anything like that

Also, go to some Aerospace Engineering sites and do some research on aerodynamics

A WS6 hood is a huge crutch at lift speeds compared to a Firehawk/TA/Formula/Camaro hood. Still looks good though



Christopher

01SSDRVR

iTrader: (1)

Proof please cause i've heard the opposite. Not that it does a whole lot but Ive been told it does more then the Z28 spoiler.

WS-Sick

I've also heard that the coefficient of drag on the WS6 is surprisingly lower (barely) than the SS. looks can be decieving...

Racehead

Uh ... bullshit. If you think you're non-WS6 hood is going to overcome 40 rwhp ( or even 10 rwhp ) then your smoking crack. You're singular comparison with your buddy is no proof of anything. You're forgetting also that the WS6 hood IF you seal it to make it true ram-air makes additional hp at high speeds over what the dyno would measure. My 340 rwhp @ sea level WS6 would go 175 mph at 5000 ft altitude and 6500 ft density altitude. It's a very aerodynamic hood, though I won't say that it's not slightly worse than the standard hood.

When I said that the WS6 hood would tear itself off at speeds of over 190 mph, I wasn't saying that it wasn't aerodynamic, but rather that the ram-air is so affective that it pressurizes the engine compartment to such an extent that the hood bulges outward eventually causing it's destruction.

Racehead

I have NO scientific data to provide you, just the real world experiences of the people I race with in ORR and other high speed venues. I don't doubt that it might be slightly better than the Z28 spoiler, but slightly better than totally worthless is still worthless. Neither even comes close to helping you out at 150+ mph speeds. NataSS, whom I race with in ORR, has an SS. He was forced to go with the LG rear spoiler ( which didn't work out either because it makes too much downforce ) to keep his car planted above 150 mph. The WS6 rear spoiler is almost perfect for high speed work. It provides just the right amount of downforce while still being very aerodynamic. I'd trust mine to do it's job at least to 200ish mph, although I'd definitely want to change the front air damn above 180 or so.

Racehead

It is. It's because of three things. All of these differances are slight, but do make a differance.

1. The front end is more aerodynamic because of the Camaro's false grill area kind of acts like a chute to a mild degree and

2. The rear fenders are more rounded above and behind the rear tires on T/A's, which helps the air flow smoothly past the car and

3. the rear bumper extends further rearward on T/A's, which helps the fast moving air more easily fill in the vacuum behind the car

None of these differances have been documented by any private testing facility and so no numbers are published. This of course means that anyone is free to disagree and no one can present numbers to refute arguments. These differances are simply professional/educated assumptions based on the results of actual changes made to f-body race cars and the known general affects of differing shapes on aerodynamics.

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

Easy there tough-guy; I don't resort to ignorant profanity concerning your posts so don't do it in mine.

The horsepower deficit guess I stated was based on the fact that we would do multiple runs from various speeds where he would gain a few cars distance and then I would always make it up and surpass him in 5th.

I know you can understand that if he could put roughly the same amount of cars on me repeatedly in 1st through 4th gears during roll-races that he is making more power than me at the time. I hope you would agree with at least that statement.

THIS IS REAL WORLD DATA Whether or not he was making 30 to 40 or even as low as 15 to 25 rwhp more than me at the time of multiple testing is unsure and was not dyno-tested . . . but he was making a decent amount more power

Pete from CNC couldn't figure it out either; he's the one that did the Heads on the WS6 in question.

We called MTI as well . . . everyone said that, other than AERODYNAMICS, it had to be gears . . . I have the stock 3:42's and so does he and we both have the same D&D M6 tranny's; process of elimination dude.

Also you are incorrect about the hood ripping off at 190 mph or better; the WS6 hood holds on fine

The only immediate concern at those speeds is, surprisingly, the windshield. It begins to resonate and make a HIGHLY unsettling noise at those velocities.

As I mentioned before about the hp deficit, these runs were done a long time ago and a couple set-ups ago. My set-up is far stronger than his now so we wouldn't have that weird losing in 4th then winning in 5th gear thing now

Only me winning the whole time

Noone's knocking the WS6 hood ---> see sig <--- but don't think that the extra few square inches of frontal area wouldn't make a dramatic impact in high-speed drag; because it would

Camaro99SS

iTrader: (4)

No one mentioned anything about the car being broken in or not regarding 200mph. Car and Driver tests cars with maybe a couple hundred miles on them at most. I'm sure this Z06 was no different.

Jason

Racehead

I used profanity ? Where ? Was it the word bullshit ? Sorry about that powerful word there hotrod, didn't know you were so sensitive lol !

a guess ?

It still sounds like a guess. It sounds like you really have no idea what the hp differential was ?

No I'm not incorrect about the hoods ripping off. I've never tested it out myself since I've never gone over 175 mph, but a few high speed tests by knowledgable sources have shown that it does in fact tear off on or near 190ish mph. BTW I'll show you in-car vid of my 175 mph run if you show your vid of your 190 mph run

Our windshields have been shown to be safe at 230 mph in the unlimited divisions of ORR events hundreds of times. Ever heard of Todd Carpenter ?

Glad to hear it, revenge is always sweet !

Frontal area is calculated from the ground to the top of the windshield. Think of the silhouette of the car from the front. Since this is true, the snorkels on the WS6 don't increase the frontal area at all. This doesn't mean that they don't degrade the aerodynamics, they just don't increase frontal area.

Good night, I'm going to bed now

300bhp/ton

removal of the mirrors will certainly effect the drag CO and frontal area, but it wil have ZILCHO effect on BHP.

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

You left a lot to be assumed, you told us what he had done motor wise, but nothing else.

Acually you did, and it seems to be the same thing MTI thought.

Ive done my reasearch, have you? If so you would have known that the WS6 hood dosent increase frontal area.

Id love to see your numbers that say that so you can prove me wrong.

01SSDRVR

iTrader: (1)

Ok, so you have no proof. Thats what I thought. Ive gone 150+ in both my SS and WS6 and they felt the same to me, but thats imo, which is worthless, just like yours. Because you "have NO scientific data", as you stated. If your going to say that the SS spoiler is "worthless", you could at least show some proof, and not your "professional" opnion.

Racehead

OK you got me. The SS rear spoiler is just as good as the WS6 one, probably better. In fact I'd recommend you stick with it no matter what speeds you attempt .... have fun ...

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

I was typing fast, sorry

Yes I've done my research and used the incorrect wording . . . as Racehead pointed out, the WS6 hood will degrade and negatively affect the aero-dynamics of the Trans Am

I'll list all of the mods in my car . . . I'm glad somebody gave me an excuse to do so

Christopher's Onyx Black 2001 SLP T/A Firehawk M6 #89

Bilsteins, Chrome Rims, Deck Mat, Birth Certificate, Portfolio

PERFORMANCE: Jung's S2 Heads stock CR | TSP 237/242 MS3 | '03 Viper Tranny | Byun Speed supplied F.A.S.T. LSX 90mm Red Intake Manifold | Kooks 1 7/8”, 3” Y | Spec S3 Kevlar Clutch | SLP Hi-Flow Radiator | Corsa Cat-back with Borla XR1 in the I-pipe | Meziere EWP 160* | LPE 3 1/2" Aluminum Driveshaft | F.A.S.T. 90 mm TB | Racetronix Fuel Pump | De-screened MAF | MTI Clear Lid-K&N | ASP Crank Pulley | TSP LS6 Ported Oil Pump | Rollmaster Double-Roller Timing Chain | TR Pushrods | SLP Bellows | NGK Plugs-MSD'S | Harlan's Shiftlight | FRA | TBB | tuned by Me | Crane Valvetrain with PP .650 lift springs | Hotchkis SFC's & STB | Mac Rear-End Cover with tighter lashed gears | 17x11 rear Firehawk’s with Nitto 315’s | Stock Hurst with UMI Short Stick | SLP Reverse Logic Module | New '04 LS1 engine at 48K mi | Brembo Slotted and Cross-drilled Rotors with Red Calipers.

COSMETIC: BPP Headlights, Granatelli 200 mph White Gauges, Custom Front Air Dam, Custom Firehawk Fuel Rail Covers, Custom Firehawk Headrest Embroidery, Custom Carbon Fiber Interior, Custom Red Leather Interior, Custom Red Carpet, Custom Red Tubing for Engine Bay, Mallory Billet Polished Aluminum Interior, Pioneer 10" Stealth Box, Clear Corner Lenses, Trans Am Valve Stems.

As for my vague comment about rwhp aero . . . I've got a lot more motor then him now and I still have an aero advantage including my headlights now (at night at least)

No video because the WS6 in question was not mine, but his (forged 347 '02 WS6).

Didn't know that about the windows but that is VERY reassuring As I said before, it was EXTREMELY disconcerting to hear that vibration at those speeds . . . my passenger very nearly took a dump on his seat

I'm gonna be uploading a video of my Firehawk going 90 to 190 mph on streetfire's site . . . I think EVERYONE here would appreciate seeing a stock displacement, naturally aspirated LS1 making that run in a FAR shorter time then the Gallardo's video showed

Good reading guys

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

I have no hard data/numbers crunched, just like others in this thread have none

I only have real-world testing with no sophisticated equipment. Educated guess', again like others here , based on general knowledge of aerodynamics/drag etc.

Cars usually have a problem with lifting at the front as velocity, and wind shear, increases. The more streamlined the car is on top, and the flater it is underneath, the more aerodynamic the car is with down-force suffering proportionally.

This increase in aerodynamic efficency is what allows the car in question to pass through the air more easily.

Please bear with me . . . my memory of college physics/engineering is fading with the years

Any bulge or "nostrils" in this case which take away from the streamling of the vehicle should negatively effect aerodynamics but possibly aid in down-force; again, just guessing here

Ofcourse it's a double-edged sword with aerodynamics and down-force. If the shell is designed for maximum down-force it will be negatively effecting the streamlining aerodynamics. Thus more power will be required to move at higher speeds.

This was the GREATEST dilemma the Engineers at Bugatti faced for the last few YEARS when designing the Veyron.

In the end, the ingenius automatic wing deployment variations for down-force and aerodynamics solved the problem; also automatic suspension played no small part

With the handling setting at speeds below 22x mph, the wing is high and extended to maximize down-force and, thereby, maximizing high-speed handling and stability. Yet it will not exceed speeds higher than this with that particular wing/suspension setting.

With the top-speed setting and attempting maximum velocity, 253 mph, the wing is retracted to almost nothing to increase aerodynamics and the car's ability to displace the air better; thus achieving maximum velocity. Only problem is down-force is dam# near crippled and high-speed stability is hazardous at best.

Sorry about the rambling but I've enjoyed the topic very much

It's been years since I've been able to engage in a theoretical discussion such as this one

Racehead

I did not state that the WS6 would degrade the aerodynamics, but rather simply acknowledged the possibility. I know of no one who has traded hoods back and forth and measured top speeds of the car for a real world test, nor do I know of any actual wind tunnel comparisons. All I do know is that fellow competitors in ORR, who have similiar mods to me, and non-WS6 hoods, seem to have similiar top speeds. This doesn't mean that there isn't a differance, but it does imply that it's rather small. In short I guess I feel that in the absence of any real world testing, the argument that the WS6 hood bulges noticably degrade aerodynamics is pretty thin, though certainly possible.

What is a Trans Am valve stem ? If you still have the rubber ones then you'd better install metal ones for high speed work

You need a new passenger

Can't wait to see the vid

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

They're metal http://pontiacmall.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PO146

My mis-read on the statement

I agree, the passenger has a ~10.0, 9 sec capable, forged 375" LS1 Z28 that traps above 136 mph yet he was nervous to say the least doing high-speed stuff as a passenger Sorry Devon . . . you're still my boy

Your experience with competitors at the speeds in question is illuminating . . . it also gives Julian ('02 forged 347 WS6) and I more questions than answers as to why there is such a HUGE discrepancy above 150 mph between our cars

Oh well . . . wish I could get some of the equipment Bugatti used and borrow a GM wind tunnel

Racehead

That's re-assuring. A fellow competitor had a flat tire at nearly 200 mph because his rubber stems "layed" over from the centrifugal forces and let some air out. Bad juju

No problem. I do suspect not only it's possibility, but it's likelihood. I only question the extent.

I hear of drag racers, even fast ones, getting bored with the sport. I've never heard of anyone getting bored with high speed stuff

It would be nice to throw a regular T/A hood on my car and do same day top speed comparisons. Where do you live again ?

Well .... it couldn't hurt to ask ?

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

Dam#! That is FRIGHTENING! More than anything else, no matter how much preparation and precautions are taken: debris, oil in the road, small animals crossing, etc. my biggest worry at high speeds is tire failure of a sort. I hesitate to ask but . . . did the guy live?


I'd much rather come up by you and go all out on the highways in your neck of the woods . . . I'd love to take a spin in that SSC Ofcourse my DREAM would be to have my car in Germany

Now I just gotta replace this piece of crap Spec with a Textralia . . . SECOND DISC IN LESS THAN 2 YEARS with NO TRACK/VHT LAUNCHES Young . . . I'll be ordering as soon as I wake up


Couldn't hurt . . . but it might sting hearing them slam the phone down