69firebird

iTrader: (14)

sorry I didnt read the whole thing just figured id be lazy and post my question, are these block designed more for boost/nitrous rather than NA applications

I know NA will still work, but with all the extra strength I would think it may be better for higher HP than NA applications

MerlinPro

69,
The idea we had is that for N/A applications this strength factor always allows the owner to build "more" 'cause as racers, we always seem to want "more". Never having to change your foundation (block) while the aftermarket continues to bring on newer and better equipment for this line, is an economical way to evolve your combination. We think our blocks are a screamin' deal for equipment at this advanced level. Our heads too.
When our Dominator manifold arrives, the spray guys will have no worries about block breakage issues, even at 400+ shots.
The N/A road race guys will beat on these things all day long on track days and never have to worry. It's not just for drag racing. It's just up to the way you choose to progress.
The response to our block at SEMA by guys like WJ and KJ was very positive. On a purely personal note and not just because I work here, it's just a really cool piece , and we know something has to be cool for us to go for it. Warhawk 1 and WorldTech have done a masterful job on the entire design.
We hope you agree when you see these on the street and track.
Regards,

Quick Carl

http://popularhotrodding.com/events/0603phr_sema/
This is in popular hot rodding this month. The crank is Billet for the 4.500 stroke, Lunati makes the 4.250 stroke, the rods are Carrillo, Wiseco pistons, Comp. does the cams. All of the components were designed and ran in solid modeling by ERL. The Deckplates are the same patened design used in 50# boosted 120 C.I. motors making 800+ H.P. to the wheels for years by ERL. The sleeves are .100 thick (Siamese) on a 4.200 bore between the cylinders and .175" thick in the thrust direction for over 1.0" in the upper cylinders. This gives the highest strength where the cylinder pressures are and provides the largest area under the head possible to seat the sleeve. This gives the same wall thickness on a 4.200 bore as the Warhawk has on 4.125" bore. The deckplate design increases the clamping force at the cylinders by reducing the area the force is spread over. This essentially creates an O-ringed block without the hassle of o-ringing. It just uses a MLS cometic head gasket. The design also prevents the head from being lifted off the cylinders as the block heats and expands at different rates or distorts under loads. This adds improved sealing for all the non 6 bolt heads (ET, AFR, Patriot, LS7,etc.). There is also a complete water circuit to prioritize the cooling of the upper cylinders where all the heat is in the block. The 4.500 cranks has been balanced (a concern to the guys at GM's high performance). The combo allows the use of full skirted pistons for strength in forced induction or nitrous applications. The 10.2 tall deck and 6.6 to 6.8 long rod eleminates any piston skirt scuffing due to bad rod angles and pulling the pistons out of the bottom of the bore (common in LSX strokers), and the reluctor wheel to piston clearance issues. To answer a couple of other questions quickly; We've been sleeving aluminum blocks for years and have never had a sunken, cracked sleeve. Note earlier that the area under the sleeve head is maximized for the stock 4.4 bore center. Dimensionaly, the cylinder head moves out and up .700" per side because of the 90 degree block. If you use the intake spacers that allow you to use any intake on the market, the over all height will be increased by approx. 1.25" depending on the head and intake used. It was good to see everyone at the PRI and Sema shows coming by the booths. Merlinpro, were you one of the guys from World I met at our booth? I hope this answers alot of the questions and future posts won't have to be so long. A NA street/LS7 headed pump gas motor and a supercharged/LS7 headed motor are being tested. After testing is completed, the short blocks will be available. Thanks to Wiseco,Carrillo,Lunati,Comp,Cometic and the several engine builders involved for jumping on board for the 500ci build.

MerlinPro

Quick,
I did not have that pleasure as I was manning the fort at home.
You probably met Bill Mitchell Sr. and Jr.
Nice to see you jump in here. The guys are obviously interested at a very high tech level.
Regards,

Wet 1

iTrader: (4)

Interesting info Carl, thank you for posting. The block and its adapted plates sounds very well thought out, but I do have one question... Is this system price competitive with the WP block? I want to say the WP block with its billet caps and ARP studs is around $4k ready to go, can this ERL block with billet caps and ARP studs be had for close to the same money???


BTW, I believe ET has 6 bolt head castings now and I've heard another big head company is tooling up for them as well (although I don't know who that is).

Quick Carl

Thanks Wet1 for the info on the heads. I have read many of your posts.
Initially the short block ( fully CNC machined block, crank, rods, pistons, rings, bearings, cam ) will be sold as an assy.. This is to make sure that the proper components are matched and not have issues early on. I am sure that the components will be sold individually at a later date and the block will be competetively priced at that time. If a customer has certain specs. they want (ie. cam grind, piston, etc.) , Comp. or Wiseco can make it for them to fit our application. Comp is going to have cores in stock to grind to specs. We simply don't want a customer using off the shelf parts on the 4.5 stroke and crashing rods into cams and the block. The 2 additional bolts can be added, but we have found it unnecessary on other 4 bolt blocks with the deckplate. The doweled billet main caps are an option since the stock caps have proven reliable under 700HP if you dowel them and will save the very mild build, torque application guys some money. Bronze Lifter bushings are also an option to tighten the "loose" factory specs. . There is a bushing for hydraulic rollers and a different bushing for the solid roller due to different oil demands. These are installed on our CNC while the block is being machined, which is all trued off of crank/cam centerline. We are looking for any weakness in the block in our testing and strengthen it if needed.

Wet 1

iTrader: (4)

Carl,

I very much look forward to seeing completed engines and your results. It sounds like everything in the short block is going to need to be custom to make it all come together. I would also assume much of the top end will need to be custom as well to harness the potential of a 500ci engine. Huge head ports, 2.25" headers, custom intake to physicaly match the tall deck as well as flow characteristics of an engine this size (a FAST would certainly be less than ideal)... and I don't think anyone looking for this kind of displacement is going to be happy with anything less than 700hp given the cost and custom work evolved.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't an engine like this going to run $25k-$35k turn key? If the customer has the jack to fund a build like this, your product sounds very attractive. I do question how many LSx guys can afford or will pony up the money given other options. Add in a FI system and this thing could get REALLY costly. But for those who can swing it, your innovative and unique product looks appealing.

Best of luck and please keep us posted!



One other thing (and please don't take this the wrong way or as condescending), you might want to use paragraphs to segment your thoughts. It would make your posts far more effective and be a lot easier for your audience to embrace.

Again, best of luck.

Quick Carl

Sorry about the run on paragraphs. I guess I get wrapped up on the subject and I should go back to edit it.
The short block will be a similar cost as building a World block or a sleeved 427 block. The crank, rods, pistons are all priced similar to the same components as would be used in a 427 or 454 build if you used the same quality components. They are just made to our specs.. As you know the Carrillo rods and billet crank are not priced the same as the chineese counterparts.
The heads, intake are std. bolt pattern as any LSX motor. We offer intake spacers to allow the use of any intake on the market. Just buy the same intake or heads as you were going to use on your 427/ 454 build.
The headers will be the same issue as you will find with the 9.8 deck World block. I believe a 2" min. primary would be prefered.
With all of the fantastic flowing heads coming on the market , the need for displacement is the next issue. Being able to have a stroked big block dispacement in a lightweight aluminum small block package certainly has it's benefits. And with GM's displacement on demand, being able to cruise a huge HP torque monster down the highway as a 4 cyl. 250c.i. has it's benefits called $2.50 + a gallon.
I agree that it's not for everyone, but for those looking at buying all the components for their next build will find it competetive. I have seen many of +$10K builds for short blocks being built and that wasn't assembled.
Thanks for your input. I was surprised at the number of people at the shows needing huge torque without the rev's for their application.

MerlinPro

Carl,
To correct a tiny nit: our World tall deck block is 9.800" not 9.980".
Carry on!

jrp

iTrader: (16)

Carl,

have you guys done any in car clearance testing? i.e removing heads in car with ARP head studs, intake manifold removal (the 4 back bolts under the car, ect.

Quick Carl

Sorry about that Merlinpro, too many 9's.
Removing the heads in the car will most likely require taking the studs out. The intake should be no problem. We can let you know if we have to remove them in the car. The LSX motors are used in so many applications that it will not be required in some and not needed in others. Head bolts could be substituted if this is a need for you. We use studs since they are generaly prefered in aluminum blocks.
Thanks for the questions and concerns, since this will help to improve the product.