LS-2 in Disguise!!!
4.200 Mid Darton made the first set for me this week. They are available only for the LS1 block. The LS2 MID sleeve needs a different program. Be a while longer for that one.
I recommend the 4.200" sleeve not be installed in the LS6 block by the way. That block is pretty weak in the bottom because of the breather holes. The LS2 has similar breather holes but the wall is much taller between the cylinders because the coolant jacket has been raised relative to the earlier blocks.
Steve
I recommend the 4.200" sleeve not be installed in the LS6 block by the way. That block is pretty weak in the bottom because of the breather holes. The LS2 has similar breather holes but the wall is much taller between the cylinders because the coolant jacket has been raised relative to the earlier blocks.
Steve
Originally Posted by 52172
are the darton 4.20 MID sleeves available yet? steve?
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Fort Belvoir, VA
Originally Posted by billreid1@***.net
A sleeve manu and a guy who stuffs them posting crap about the LS7 block looks like a profit making propoganda business decision to me... well before it looks like a consumer alert. Any machinest can post crappy pics of a block after the sleeves are pulled and pitch the significance of what the block looks like afterwards. Bottom line is the block was smoked because the owner and/or tuner of it is an idiot... not because of the blocks strength, the way GM engineers desgined it, or how factory machinests prepped the block for sleeves.
When the LS7 block becomes available there will be guys that buy it and push power levels beyond its engineered limits. I won't hold my breath on the significance of "barber poling" and how it can affect the strength of the block and/or the "gray" sleeve.
What I would like to see is LS2 and LS7 blocks/pieces disected and next to each other proving the accusation that they are one in the same casting...
When the LS7 block becomes available there will be guys that buy it and push power levels beyond its engineered limits. I won't hold my breath on the significance of "barber poling" and how it can affect the strength of the block and/or the "gray" sleeve.
What I would like to see is LS2 and LS7 blocks/pieces disected and next to each other proving the accusation that they are one in the same casting...
Wow thats kinda crappy....hopefully GM corrects the issue as im sure there are gonna be plenty of C6 Z06 owners out there with similar problems if it is indeed not just an isolated incident. I honestly think GM should have just stayed with the LS2, except forged the bottom end and added a S/C as the production engine for the Z06 IMO. Im sure they are awesome engines the LS7's but man that just looks like poor craftsmanship.
Originally Posted by Steve - Race Eng
What may lead to problems (faulure) is the liner itself being gray iron and not ductile iron. Gray iron rarely exceeds 50,000 psi tensile strength, is quite brittle and will crack under detonation.
The Darton sleeve for the LS2 dry is made of 110,000 psi minimum tensile strength ductile iron. You can hit the sleeve with a hammer and it will bend but will not crack. If you try that with a gray iron sleeve you better be wearing eye protection because it will shatter.
Steve
The Darton sleeve for the LS2 dry is made of 110,000 psi minimum tensile strength ductile iron. You can hit the sleeve with a hammer and it will bend but will not crack. If you try that with a gray iron sleeve you better be wearing eye protection because it will shatter.
Steve
Also, because it is not ductile it wouldn't be as likely to wrap and WOULD work fine if never subjected to anything more than average driving. Of course, metals fail and neck down at the S'ut point however they can be damaged before that be repetitive shocks that cause a progressive fracture.
You were worried about progressive fracture over the course of years, right? Because I don't see a single impulse just breaking a sleeve.
I think you made a good choice for the MATL on those sleeves. Would love to see a product picture. Very interested to see how they do!
LS2 Darton dry sleeve I posted these photos a few months ago but since you asked....
By the way, I don't normally post prices on this forum. The only reason I did was because someone asked.
Originally, it was published in SAE and other magazines, that the LS7 block was different from earlier blocks. The camshaft was raised, and had a larger journal diameter than the LS1, LS6 and LS2 blocks, etc.
Obviously this is not the case. John at Darton just wanted to point this out which is why he did the post. Since I did the actual work on the block I figured I could add some details about the block.
For those of you who want to run the stock LS7 block, Darton will make a ductile iron replacement for boosted or nitrous applications. The stock gray iron liner will probably hold up fine in a daily driver as someone else pointed out.
Ductile iron sleeves will not warp if properly installed. The block is what does the warping, not the sleeve. That is why I advocate stress relieving any new block. A used block will already be stress relieved through use so additional stress relieving is not required.
Steve
By the way, I don't normally post prices on this forum. The only reason I did was because someone asked.
Originally, it was published in SAE and other magazines, that the LS7 block was different from earlier blocks. The camshaft was raised, and had a larger journal diameter than the LS1, LS6 and LS2 blocks, etc.
Obviously this is not the case. John at Darton just wanted to point this out which is why he did the post. Since I did the actual work on the block I figured I could add some details about the block.
For those of you who want to run the stock LS7 block, Darton will make a ductile iron replacement for boosted or nitrous applications. The stock gray iron liner will probably hold up fine in a daily driver as someone else pointed out.
Ductile iron sleeves will not warp if properly installed. The block is what does the warping, not the sleeve. That is why I advocate stress relieving any new block. A used block will already be stress relieved through use so additional stress relieving is not required.
Steve
Originally Posted by 2002_Z28_Six_Speed
I am thinking that GM made it of gray cast due to the fact that it is the easiest and cheapest to produce. Not that it would be bad in the case of the daily driver.
Also, because it is not ductile it wouldn't be as likely to wrap and WOULD work fine if never subjected to anything more than average driving. Of course, metals fail and neck down at the S'ut point however they can be damaged before that be repetitive shocks that cause a progressive fracture.
You were worried about progressive fracture over the course of years, right? Because I don't see a single impulse just breaking a sleeve.
I think you made a good choice for the MATL on those sleeves. Would love to see a product picture. Very interested to see how they do!
Also, because it is not ductile it wouldn't be as likely to wrap and WOULD work fine if never subjected to anything more than average driving. Of course, metals fail and neck down at the S'ut point however they can be damaged before that be repetitive shocks that cause a progressive fracture.
You were worried about progressive fracture over the course of years, right? Because I don't see a single impulse just breaking a sleeve.
I think you made a good choice for the MATL on those sleeves. Would love to see a product picture. Very interested to see how they do!
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
I just dont get how GM could go cheap on the engine in an almost 80K car? I mean you can get an ls2 c6 vette for around 48-50K, and with that additional 30K you could make your own 427 for cheaper and still have a ton of money left over for a new tranny or rear end if needed. Not trying to play the ricer game with prices as I know the LS7 is a beast and the Z06 is a much more limited production vehicle, but I just would figure that youd get an exceptionally well built engine for that kind of money. I mean I would figure that even if they had to charge a little more they could throw in forged internals (forged pistons) and a much better sleeving material than that. Why go cheap on an engine that is going into your baddest production vehicle that is costing people around 80K? Doesnt make sense?
Probly 1 out of 3 potential Z06 buyer that calls me ask if we could do a FI setup on there car when they get it.By reading the info here it looks like resleaving the block and adding stronger rods is a neccesity(spell).Not going to go over well 
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On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
From: Lewisville, Tx.
what about the Z06 owners simply staying NA? Like, at the very least, air intake, headers, more aggressive tune than stock? Maybe a cam swap? Would the stock gray liner hold up over time with a simple bolt-on packge (obviously, assuming a safe tune)? thoughts?
Would the stock gray liner hold up over time with a simple bolt-on packge (obviously, assuming a safe tune)? thoughts? I really don't think that GM "went cheap on it." It is not like it is made of sugar and will bust on a whim. I think you are a little overreactive on this matter. The stock sleeve is perfect for the job it was designed to do. If you plan on building up a motor, plan on replacing stuff. That goes for any motor. The LS7 is still a good motor and makes a lot of horsepower.
I know the car is 80K! But think of all the other work and materials they put into that car like the frame being a special AL alloy. I am sure you are getting what you paid for. The Z06 was rated a best buy wasn't it?
How many people are going to boost their Z06??? Very few compared to the number of people that buy them.
I know the car is 80K! But think of all the other work and materials they put into that car like the frame being a special AL alloy. I am sure you are getting what you paid for. The Z06 was rated a best buy wasn't it?
How many people are going to boost their Z06??? Very few compared to the number of people that buy them.
Originally Posted by 2002_Z28_Six_Speed
I really don't think that GM "went cheap on it." It is not like it is made of sugar and will bust on a whim. I think you are a little overreactive on this matter. The stock sleeve is perfect for the job it was designed to do. If you plan on building up a motor, plan on replacing stuff. That goes for any motor. The LS7 is still a good motor and makes a lot of horsepower.
I know the car is 80K! But think of all the other work and materials they put into that car like the frame being a special AL alloy. I am sure you are getting what you paid for. The Z06 was rated a best buy wasn't it?
How many people are going to boost their Z06??? Very few compared to the number of people that buy them.
I know the car is 80K! But think of all the other work and materials they put into that car like the frame being a special AL alloy. I am sure you are getting what you paid for. The Z06 was rated a best buy wasn't it?
How many people are going to boost their Z06??? Very few compared to the number of people that buy them.
Yea im not trying to say its a piece of crap by any means and i understand that you are getting a lot more than just a c6 vette with an ls7 engine, I just cant see not going with the best parts available for the engine, thats all. Its not like its an economy car, its pretty much a high 10/low 11 second track car made for the street, so id figure that they would use forged parts and top of the line sleeves, especially when it comes in at 80K. I mean I think all C6 Z06 owners would have been willing to pay 83-85K for the car if they had gone with better sleeves and all forged parts than saving 3K-5K and getting it around 80K, but again its just my opinion on the matter, thats all.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Once again, It shows you not to believe everything you read in here or in magazines. Just becasue someone publishes something on speculation or has an "opinion" on something doesnt make it set in stone as being factual.
Dave
Also, How come Steve has not posted the benefits of the cast iron sleeves over the ductile?
Dave
Also, How come Steve has not posted the benefits of the cast iron sleeves over the ductile?
Originally Posted by 99Fbody99
Once again, It shows you not to believe everything you read in here or in magazines. Just becasue someone publishes something on speculation or has an "opinion" on something doesnt make it set in stone as being factual.
Dave
Also, How come Steve has not posted the benefits of the cast iron sleeves over the ductile?
Dave
Also, How come Steve has not posted the benefits of the cast iron sleeves over the ductile?
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Just pointing out the obvious, Steve "Read in a magazine" or heard from a friend..then people formed a negative opinion.
Also, grey cast iron liners used are have significantly higher column stiffness and kill ductile iron in incometer testing.
Dave
Also, grey cast iron liners used are have significantly higher column stiffness and kill ductile iron in incometer testing.
Dave
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Ontario, Canada EH!
Over reaction, that's it.
GM beats the CRAP out of their engines during their durability testing requirements far more than anyone else ever will. This obviously does not include modifying the engine.
If you operate the engine outside the parameters covered in GM's testing and you blow it up, well, that's your fault. That's why warranties are voided when mods are done.
GM didn't design the LS7 to handle nitrous, super/turbocharging, or repeated detonation from poor tuning.
This engine has cast pistons to keep it quiet on startup, though most will bitch that forged pistons are better... those who will bitch are not the majority, and most of you them will never own one anyway.
Most people think that just because the rods are made of Titanium they are strong... you couldn't be more wrong. Material does not equal strength, the amount of material does. Titanium is strong for its weight, but unless you put alot of Titanium in there it's not going to be strong. The Ti rods in the LS7 are probably no stronger than the LS2 rods.
The LS7 is a pretty good engine, the most powerful N/A V8 ever released in a production car. One guy screws up a nitrous install on one and everyone thinks it's crap because it blew up. Come on...
BTW, how come I can buy a resleeved LS2 from Race Engine Development for $2,700, and Rapid Motorsports sells the same thing for $4,000???
GM beats the CRAP out of their engines during their durability testing requirements far more than anyone else ever will. This obviously does not include modifying the engine.
If you operate the engine outside the parameters covered in GM's testing and you blow it up, well, that's your fault. That's why warranties are voided when mods are done.
GM didn't design the LS7 to handle nitrous, super/turbocharging, or repeated detonation from poor tuning.
This engine has cast pistons to keep it quiet on startup, though most will bitch that forged pistons are better... those who will bitch are not the majority, and most of you them will never own one anyway.
Most people think that just because the rods are made of Titanium they are strong... you couldn't be more wrong. Material does not equal strength, the amount of material does. Titanium is strong for its weight, but unless you put alot of Titanium in there it's not going to be strong. The Ti rods in the LS7 are probably no stronger than the LS2 rods.
The LS7 is a pretty good engine, the most powerful N/A V8 ever released in a production car. One guy screws up a nitrous install on one and everyone thinks it's crap because it blew up. Come on...
BTW, how come I can buy a resleeved LS2 from Race Engine Development for $2,700, and Rapid Motorsports sells the same thing for $4,000???
Originally Posted by 99Fbody99
Just pointing out the obvious, Steve "Read in a magazine" or heard from a friend..then people formed a negative opinion.
Also, grey cast iron liners used are have significantly higher column stiffness and kill ductile iron in incometer testing.
Dave
Also, grey cast iron liners used are have significantly higher column stiffness and kill ductile iron in incometer testing.
Dave
where are the metalurgy test that prove the greater stiffness over ductile iron? please bring facts to the table instead of hearsey...
Originally Posted by jrp
umm, the "magazine" was the SAE papers...
where are the metalurgy test that prove the greater stiffness over ductile iron? please bring facts to the table instead of hearsey...
where are the metalurgy test that prove the greater stiffness over ductile iron? please bring facts to the table instead of hearsey...
Bill
Originally Posted by billreid1@***.net
I'm still waiting on facts regarding accusations that the LS2 and LS7 blocks are one in the same (with factual disections of said blocks)... which started this thread. Ya, I'd like to see some proof BOTH ways... at LEAST regarding common street apps which this forum caters to... NOT all out race apps that may require extensive block work. And I'm sure we'll see some proof soon enough that the LS7 is PLENTY strong enough, as released from GM, to support horsepower levels that most here only dream of. GM comes out with a block that clearly encroaches on a sleeve manu's business along with a machines shops labor business... and this is the best they can do... crap on the very company that makes businesses happen... let alone this forum. GM has not yet announced pricing and availability of the LS7 block (let alone the L92) although speculation runs rampant. Rest assured that when they are released, along with the Warhawk... there will be other options than sleeving an existing block. Competition for market share is great... brings out the best/worse in all of us.
Bill
Bill
darton did not purchase the block to create bad press or speculation. a customer destroyed the sleeve in his block with a 300 shot of n2o. said customer then contacted a shop for options on how to proceed with a new build. the shop then contacted darton to R&D a new sleeve to replace the one that was destroyed by the n2o. steve removed the sleeves to see what he had to work with and what kind of sleeves the block would accept. Steve did the R&D on the ls2 specific dry sleeves that darton produces and the specifications needed to bore the block out. so he knows the specs of the ls2 block inside and out. during the inspection of the ls7 block he put two and two together because the specs came out to be the same as an ls2 sans the larger bores.
and from GM's cost perspective it makes perfect sense to use and ls2 block and just resleeve it for the larger bore. some people are just under the illussion that GM gave them the holy grail of blocks with the ls7. however the block seems to follow suite with the rest of the materials used for the bottom end.
Originally Posted by jrp
well you are in possession or have access to an ls7 block from the crate motor your doing a project out of correct? why dont you put your money where your mouth is and send darton your block and they disect it and measuer it spec to spec against the ls2 blocks they have in the shop. then when you proven wrong they ship you back your new paper weight....
Originally Posted by jrp
darton did not purchase the block to create bad press or speculation. a customer destroyed the sleeve in his block with a 300 shot of n2o. said customer then contacted a shop for options on how to proceed with a new build. the shop then contacted darton to R&D a new sleeve to replace the one that was destroyed by the n2o. steve removed the sleeves to see what he had to work with and what kind of sleeves the block would accept. Steve did the R&D on the ls2 specific dry sleeves that darton produces and the specifications needed to bore the block out. so he knows the specs of the ls2 block inside and out. during the inspection of the ls7 block he put two and two together because the specs came out to be the same as an ls2 sans the larger bores.
Originally Posted by jrp
and from GM's cost perspective it makes perfect sense to use and ls2 block and just resleeve it for the larger bore. some people are just under the illussion that GM gave them the holy grail of blocks with the ls7. however the block seems to follow suite with the rest of the materials used for the bottom end.
I have copied and saved everything on this thread... it will keep everyone honest in the future...
Originally Posted by 99Fbody99
Just pointing out the obvious, Steve "Read in a magazine" or heard from a friend..then people formed a negative opinion.
Also, grey cast iron liners used are have significantly higher column stiffness and kill ductile iron in incometer testing.
Dave
Also, grey cast iron liners used are have significantly higher column stiffness and kill ductile iron in incometer testing.
Dave