Strength of ls7 titanium rods?
Teching In
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: NY
just close your eyes and think about this.
Someone throws a baseball at you going 4890 ft per minute (5280ft per mile) so that just under 60mph
then some one thows a baseball at you going 5833 ft per minute so that just over 60mph
If both pistons are of equal mass what one hits you harder?.... the one 5833 ft per minute it has more kinetic energy.
I'm almost certan that the pistions in a nascar motor has more mass the one in F1 motor. So that equates to even more force on the rods. BTW its the exaust stroke that kills you with rod stretch. Kinda like throwing a ball at full force then throwing nothing at full force (ouch !!)
Someone throws a baseball at you going 4890 ft per minute (5280ft per mile) so that just under 60mph
then some one thows a baseball at you going 5833 ft per minute so that just over 60mph
If both pistons are of equal mass what one hits you harder?.... the one 5833 ft per minute it has more kinetic energy.
I'm almost certan that the pistions in a nascar motor has more mass the one in F1 motor. So that equates to even more force on the rods. BTW its the exaust stroke that kills you with rod stretch. Kinda like throwing a ball at full force then throwing nothing at full force (ouch !!)
right, but some throws a baseball 9,000 ft per min (ft - rpm), and now someone throws a slightly lighter baseball 20,000 ft per min. yeah its a bit lighter, but the damn things gonna go through your body and out the other side haha. its lighter, the stroke may be shorter, but at 20 THOUSAND rpm, nothing is a joke (not that you are saying it is) its just that its exponantial. hence why nascar hasnt gone to 12,000 rpm, and probably never will. its exponantial, kinda like boost, 1-5 lbs, no biggie, but when you go from 25 to 26 lbs, its a huge difference.
Teching In
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: NY
you win Zach I give up. Piston speeds were outlined in post #'s 19 and 21. A nascar engines see higher piston speeds then a F1 engine its all about the stroke in these motors. the F1 engine sees less then 4 inches of travel per 360d of crank rotation. a nascar engine sees over 7" of travel for the same crank rotation. .
I'm done dude. This is all i have to offer. (none of this should be taken as absolut facts. as dont have the true 100% facts ) Just very close.
I'm done dude. This is all i have to offer. (none of this should be taken as absolut facts. as dont have the true 100% facts ) Just very close.
Originally Posted by Camaro_Zach
right, but some throws a baseball 9,000 ft per min (ft - rpm), and now someone throws a slightly lighter baseball 20,000 ft per min. yeah its a bit lighter, but the damn things gonna go through your body and out the other side haha. its lighter, the stroke may be shorter, but at 20 THOUSAND rpm, nothing is a joke (not that you are saying it is) its just that its exponantial. hence why nascar hasnt gone to 12,000 rpm, and probably never will. its exponantial, kinda like boost, 1-5 lbs, no biggie, but when you go from 25 to 26 lbs, its a huge difference.
Originally Posted by two step
you win Zach I give up. Piston speeds were outlined in post #'s 19 and 21. A nascar engines see higher piston speeds then a F1 engine its all about the stroke in these motors. the F1 engine sees less then 4 inches of travel per 360d of crank rotation. a nascar engine sees over 7" of travel for the same crank rotation. .
I'm done dude. This is all i have to offer. (none of this should be taken as absolut facts. as dont have the true 100% facts ) Just very close.
I'm done dude. This is all i have to offer. (none of this should be taken as absolut facts. as dont have the true 100% facts ) Just very close.
FROM A LAYMENS PROSPECTIVE MY LS1 WITH CRAPPIER RODS IS HOLDING UP FINE TO 550 HP AND LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE PUSHED FURTHER SO HOW CAN YOU SAY A BETTER PART CANT HOLD UP TO THE TASK THAT A LESSER PART HOLDS UP T JUST FINE?
Originally Posted by Camaro_Zach
I heard they are really not all they are cracked up to be (in terms of strength). Some say the rods are no good past 550ish hp. Any info on this?
Originally Posted by two step
you win Zach I give up. Piston speeds were outlined in post #'s 19 and 21. A nascar engines see higher piston speeds then a F1 engine its all about the stroke in these motors. the F1 engine sees less then 4 inches of travel per 360d of crank rotation. a nascar engine sees over 7" of travel for the same crank rotation. .
I'm done dude. This is all i have to offer. (none of this should be taken as absolut facts. as dont have the true 100% facts ) Just very close.
I'm done dude. This is all i have to offer. (none of this should be taken as absolut facts. as dont have the true 100% facts ) Just very close.
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that guys saying what i was trying to say, forget speed, we are talking acceleration forces, hence force on the rod. so this piston in the f1 car peaks out at 60 mph (if im reading it correctly) but the thing is it stops all movement, then accelerates again, then stops etc 19+ thousand times in one minute. hence thats 19 thousand impacts which might be marginally less than a nascar motor, but happens more than twice as much.
"But wait... that piston starts and stops 18,000 times every minute, accelerating to the next stop just 3 inches away (at a huge "G" force). Average speed does not really answer the question. I had to figure out the peak piston speed. Since it literally explodes from a dead stop (it's a combustion engine after all), possibly the peak speed exceeds the speed of the car?"
AND what im trying to say is the stroke might be half the distance (i assume even less than half of nascar) but its starting and stopping 19k times a minute, extreem load on the wrist pins and rods. however, youre right about nascar sittin there for 2 hours vs f1 where they accel and decel the entire race. they dont sit at 20k all day.
bottom line is both motors rule, and id love either one in the vette hahaha, preferably the f1 due to how cool it sounds.
that guys saying what i was trying to say, forget speed, we are talking acceleration forces, hence force on the rod. so this piston in the f1 car peaks out at 60 mph (if im reading it correctly) but the thing is it stops all movement, then accelerates again, then stops etc 19+ thousand times in one minute. hence thats 19 thousand impacts which might be marginally less than a nascar motor, but happens more than twice as much.
"But wait... that piston starts and stops 18,000 times every minute, accelerating to the next stop just 3 inches away (at a huge "G" force). Average speed does not really answer the question. I had to figure out the peak piston speed. Since it literally explodes from a dead stop (it's a combustion engine after all), possibly the peak speed exceeds the speed of the car?"
AND what im trying to say is the stroke might be half the distance (i assume even less than half of nascar) but its starting and stopping 19k times a minute, extreem load on the wrist pins and rods. however, youre right about nascar sittin there for 2 hours vs f1 where they accel and decel the entire race. they dont sit at 20k all day.
bottom line is both motors rule, and id love either one in the vette hahaha, preferably the f1 due to how cool it sounds.
Originally Posted by Jpr5690
FROM A LAYMENS PROSPECTIVE MY LS1 WITH CRAPPIER RODS IS HOLDING UP FINE TO 550 HP AND LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE PUSHED FURTHER SO HOW CAN YOU SAY A BETTER PART CANT HOLD UP TO THE TASK THAT A LESSER PART HOLDS UP T JUST FINE?
Originally Posted by Camaro_Zach
bottom line is both motors rule, and id love either one in the vette hahaha, preferably the f1 due to how cool it sounds.
The F1 engine and a stockcar motor are completely different animals and no one can really compare them. If NASCAR allowed Ti rods, then the entire field would be running them tomorrow. Ti is alot stronger than steel with alot less weight. It's free horsepower to use them and they are very expensive at that. To make a set of Ti rods requires someone that knows what they are doing. I don't understand the perceptoin that people have that because something is OEM then it's crap. Most of the aftermarket parts for these cars when they were new on the scene have since been proven to be snake oil and shade tree R&D if at that.
Originally Posted by Camaro_Zach
I heard they are really not all they are cracked up to be (in terms of strength). Some say the rods are no good past 550ish hp. Any info on this?
It's not uncommon for a set of Ti rods to handle 1000hp. The properties of titanium will vouch for this. GM spent some real money on these engines, even right down to the valve springs.
On The Tree
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Nascar stroke varies but is under 3.5" I have seen some 3.38" cranks around lately. Short stroke, big bore and light pistons, rings and rods.
The limiting factor is the valve train....big difference from F1. 95% of the failure in cup are "dropped a valve", "broken valve spring", etc.....only now and then do you hear "we throwed a rod out the side of the block".
At the beginning of the F1 season it was like pop corn going off...what 3 or 4 engines blown up a race.....now seems like everyone has backed them down a touch and last a little longer.
For the price, go with nice aftermarket steel....unless you already have the Ti's in your LS7. After market Ti rods are priced out of sight as are the stock LS7 rods!
The limiting factor is the valve train....big difference from F1. 95% of the failure in cup are "dropped a valve", "broken valve spring", etc.....only now and then do you hear "we throwed a rod out the side of the block".
At the beginning of the F1 season it was like pop corn going off...what 3 or 4 engines blown up a race.....now seems like everyone has backed them down a touch and last a little longer.
For the price, go with nice aftermarket steel....unless you already have the Ti's in your LS7. After market Ti rods are priced out of sight as are the stock LS7 rods!
From what I've seen on mean piston speeds, Nascar engines have higher mean piston speeds than F1 engines. As another poster said, Top Fuel even bests the Nascar piston speeds, with larger pistons, longer strokes, and 10 times the horsepower.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,017
Likes: 0
From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Originally Posted by FAST LS1
From what I've seen on mean piston speeds, Nascar engines have higher mean piston speeds than F1 engines. As another poster said, Top Fuel even bests the Nascar piston speeds, with larger pistons, longer strokes, and 10 times the horsepower.
I think Top Fuel is RPM limited to 8300? but I would still be curious to find out the piston speed on a Top Fuel.
Teching In
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Carlsbad,Ca.
F1 vs. NASCAR Interesting thread regarding piston speeds and g loads of various engines.
Does anyone know if the Ti used by GM is an alloy? If so,then what? I always understood Ti was so hard that it is "brittle." Is this not the case? I was just thinking about "pre-ignition" shock load on these rods. Wouldn't this shorten their life?
BTW,I have 'em in my engine! (At least I think they're in there!)
Does anyone know if the Ti used by GM is an alloy? If so,then what? I always understood Ti was so hard that it is "brittle." Is this not the case? I was just thinking about "pre-ignition" shock load on these rods. Wouldn't this shorten their life?
BTW,I have 'em in my engine! (At least I think they're in there!)
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
From: Enid, OK
i know that this post wont mean much but I would like to let everyone know that Ti comes in 29 different refined forms or grades. Each having a different tensil and yield strengths as well as elasticity. The Ti used on the space shittle is the highest in strength. I dont want people thinking just because its Ti means its stupid strong. The lowest grade Ti actully has LESS strenghth than Stainless Steel. I found this out on Solid Works where I created a hook and changed the material. Every variable stayed the same except the material. The Stainless was stronger throughout the stress test. I researched the SS and Ti that was available to use and the Ti was the lowest grade.
Guys, you can't even compare a NASCAR motor to a F1 at all. You're looking at a jillion different variables like alloys. v-angle, firing order, size & dimensions. F1 in order to control costs has outlawed certain alloys. They also restrict a metal as not being able to exceed so many ggP in its' strength. By 2007, I believe they are looking at 100% ethanol, and Indy Car may be around 2008 for 100% ethanol.
On your titanium, any rod maker will know the right titanium alloy to use. So, it's not anything to worry about. Russian titanium is the poor quality stuff that is brittle and has alot of impurities in it.
On your titanium, any rod maker will know the right titanium alloy to use. So, it's not anything to worry about. Russian titanium is the poor quality stuff that is brittle and has alot of impurities in it.
Originally Posted by NORTY
I always understood Ti was so hard that it is "brittle." Is this not the case?