LS7/LS2 Intake Manifold Porting and Tuning Results Inside
10-02-2006, 10:27 PM
#22
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Howdy Again as you can see I do not get much time to get on here. Ok I just ported and tested a TB for an LS7 as well and we gained 8RWHP and 8RWTQ peak and as much as 13&13 underneath the curve. Throttle response was greatly improved throughout the RPM band.
I have spent countless hours learning and developing ports that work and that is what you are paying for.
Blown04Z06- This is my livelyhood and my time is very valuable to me. A simple "no thank you" would have been sufficient. I would like to help everyone out and offer great deals to all but again time is the commodity. If you knew me I often give too much time to those that I tune, install parts, and consult with. If there is anything that I can help you out with please give me a ring.
We tested the completely stk 06 Z06 with a baseline pull of 432RWHP and I believe the TQ was about 402 er so. The rough tune gained about 19RWHP and about the same TQ. We next tested the ported TB with about a 7 min hiatus and got the car warm again and got 460RWHP and I believe about 430RWTQ. I next put on a ported manifold and after some final tweeks we got her to 475RWHP and about 44xRWTQ again I mention this vehicle has stk exh and stk air filter. Because the exh was stk I was limited in the spk curve and had to run low timing to keep her out of knock. If she had headers and no cats I feel she would have taken about 3 deg more advance and made a substancial amount more power, (the porting of the manifold would have gained more as well). Hopefully when we tested this it should make it to print in the january issue of Vette magazine, Jay heath a writer for vette was watching my every move.
I believe there is a diminishing return on all of these mods as you begin to remove resistance from the intake tract. For example as we remove the bottle necks it harder and harder to gain additional power. I have seen a few times that the halltech "race" filter pick up 8-10RWHP I would love to test the additional power that we would get if we installed this mod, I would guess we about 5RWHP. I feel that the TB took a bit of the power that I would typically get from the manifold.
I will try to post the actual dyno sheets in the next few days I have to transfer the results to my jump drive.
I look Forward to helping some of you out and keeping you guys up to speed on new developements.
Thank you all and God Bless.
Jeremy Formato
I have spent countless hours learning and developing ports that work and that is what you are paying for.
Blown04Z06- This is my livelyhood and my time is very valuable to me. A simple "no thank you" would have been sufficient. I would like to help everyone out and offer great deals to all but again time is the commodity. If you knew me I often give too much time to those that I tune, install parts, and consult with. If there is anything that I can help you out with please give me a ring.
We tested the completely stk 06 Z06 with a baseline pull of 432RWHP and I believe the TQ was about 402 er so. The rough tune gained about 19RWHP and about the same TQ. We next tested the ported TB with about a 7 min hiatus and got the car warm again and got 460RWHP and I believe about 430RWTQ. I next put on a ported manifold and after some final tweeks we got her to 475RWHP and about 44xRWTQ again I mention this vehicle has stk exh and stk air filter. Because the exh was stk I was limited in the spk curve and had to run low timing to keep her out of knock. If she had headers and no cats I feel she would have taken about 3 deg more advance and made a substancial amount more power, (the porting of the manifold would have gained more as well). Hopefully when we tested this it should make it to print in the january issue of Vette magazine, Jay heath a writer for vette was watching my every move.
I believe there is a diminishing return on all of these mods as you begin to remove resistance from the intake tract. For example as we remove the bottle necks it harder and harder to gain additional power. I have seen a few times that the halltech "race" filter pick up 8-10RWHP I would love to test the additional power that we would get if we installed this mod, I would guess we about 5RWHP. I feel that the TB took a bit of the power that I would typically get from the manifold.
I will try to post the actual dyno sheets in the next few days I have to transfer the results to my jump drive.
I look Forward to helping some of you out and keeping you guys up to speed on new developements.
Thank you all and God Bless.
Jeremy Formato
10-02-2006, 10:49 PM
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Your father was and always will be the greatest tuner there ever was- He taught me alot and Iam sure you even more- Remember the goals of what you want the torque
peak output to be at what rpm! You can move it for the application with runner
length volume ect NO free lunch move the torque higher you will need to
tune for the low rpm lossees - shorter runner more HP - loss of low rpm torque
\can be brought back with tuning-- sale the manifold with what you do best -Tuning
with it and no bs head aches -- I now you know the combination- It takes
a mainifold porting and a series custom tune to boot More money I know
but give them the magic that works with the manifold porting too! Play and pay
Ron -- Mirror - Mirror on the wall who has the fastest corvette of them all
JIM FORMATO- jUsTTHINK IFHE HAD THIS gEN III engineering with his knowledge
Follow your fathers foot steps gOD bLESS rON
peak output to be at what rpm! You can move it for the application with runner
length volume ect NO free lunch move the torque higher you will need to
tune for the low rpm lossees - shorter runner more HP - loss of low rpm torque
\can be brought back with tuning-- sale the manifold with what you do best -Tuning
with it and no bs head aches -- I now you know the combination- It takes
a mainifold porting and a series custom tune to boot More money I know
but give them the magic that works with the manifold porting too! Play and pay
Ron -- Mirror - Mirror on the wall who has the fastest corvette of them all
JIM FORMATO- jUsTTHINK IFHE HAD THIS gEN III engineering with his knowledge
Follow your fathers foot steps gOD bLESS rON
10-02-2006, 10:56 PM
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People used to gasket match the intake manifold and intake ports of the heads years ago, because they didn't know any better.
I can see how port matching the junction/interface of the intake runners to the inlet ports of the cylinder heads and feathering that out (blending) a couple of inches up the intake toward the plenum could gain a few CFM and improve velocity and thus help torque/HP and throttle response.. However, simply porting the intake manifold runners to increase the cross sectional area without individually matching it to the head could do as much harm as good in my opinion. Can someone explain this to me?
Steve
I can see how port matching the junction/interface of the intake runners to the inlet ports of the cylinder heads and feathering that out (blending) a couple of inches up the intake toward the plenum could gain a few CFM and improve velocity and thus help torque/HP and throttle response.. However, simply porting the intake manifold runners to increase the cross sectional area without individually matching it to the head could do as much harm as good in my opinion. Can someone explain this to me?
Steve
10-03-2006, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JeremyF
Blown04Z06- This is my livelyhood and my time is very valuable to me. A simple "no thank you" would have been sufficient. I would like to help everyone out and offer great deals to all but again time is the commodity. If you knew me I often give too much time to those that I tune, install parts, and consult with. If there is anything that I can help you out with please give me a ring.
Jeremy Formato
Jeremy Formato
time is a comodity in anything you do, its the only thing we dont get back. I can also tell you this i dont make up my time/dollars spent on the next client. Although my skills are applied to the next client from the good or bad experiences i go through on the previous. I also experience my trial and errors as well.
back on the subject...
from what i can see you are making excellent gains and are giving real data, your results are the only results that i have seen where the test subject vehicle is a completely stock car add ported intake=results + ported tb = real results, just as you stated the car had a completely stock exhaust system and the gains would be even greater once long tubes and fully system is added.
due to the client i just mentioned above, i ran out of money and i will have to wait to get long tubes for my LS2 403, hand ported Dart 225's 62cc, ported fast 90, ported ls2 tb, 238/112+2, -6, 116 icl cam.
now the question im having is how much power will not having headers and a X-pipe hold the motor back? since no one has done this, ill find out this week.
50hp? 60, 70 80? Not really sure. The last motor similar to mine went 534/491 with kook 1 7/8ths, auto and 12 bolt with 4:10 gears. the only difference was patriot stg 2's which on paper are very similar to the dart 225's as far as valve size, intake runner's, exhaust runners and flow numbers.
10-04-2006, 01:49 AM
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[QUOTE=Blown04Z06]i myself haven given a ton of free time to people being in the real estate and mortgage business. i cant tell you the hours upon hours i have spent with people that dont buy after i have spent several hundred dollars on gas. Which this just recently happened while gas was still $3.05. I showed 19 homes over 4 weeks drove several hundred miles, wrote 3 offers on 3 homes, countered back and forth, waiting up to a week for a response from the seller, put together 6 loan proposals and she didnt buy cause she moved out of her apartment and back into her parents house after not living at home for 7 years. Now is living the free life, because its easier that way. So 2 months spent and im at a total loss. If she were to buy, my time spent about 40 hours would have equaled out to $132 an hour due to the fact it was a small house, about 50k under my avg sale(not bragging by any means just giving a figure). Im a loan officer as well, so i also spend many hours going over different interest rate, terms and many different plans and options for people and then again for some reason the deal doesnt go through.
time is a comodity in anything you do, its the only thing we dont get back. I can also tell you this i dont make up my time/dollars spent on the next client. Although my skills are applied to the next client from the good or bad experiences i go through on the previous. I also experience my trial and errors as well.
Uhhhuuu but one house sale and your in the pink.
im about to sell my house for 580, Boy that realtor Is gonna make way to much even@ 3.5 percent and never dirty a finger.
Id feel for ya but I just cant reach =)
time is a comodity in anything you do, its the only thing we dont get back. I can also tell you this i dont make up my time/dollars spent on the next client. Although my skills are applied to the next client from the good or bad experiences i go through on the previous. I also experience my trial and errors as well.
Uhhhuuu but one house sale and your in the pink.
im about to sell my house for 580, Boy that realtor Is gonna make way to much even@ 3.5 percent and never dirty a finger.
Id feel for ya but I just cant reach =)
10-04-2006, 11:18 AM
#27
You can't make money on your next sell in real estate, its based on a %.
Your comparision IMO is useless.
So should AFR not charge additional money for spending over 2 years making the first aftermarket LSX casting cylinder head?
Every business does this.
If Ford did all the R&D for GM, and once Ford came up with a bad *** car, just handed over the product to GM for free I bet GM could sell that car for thousands less.
Look at the parts that go into a subwoofer. Probally not even 50 dollars in a very top line sub, but they sell for 400+ dollars. Again your paying for that company to figure out how to make the best product.
Sorry that you had a loss on your last project, but when you sell Mad speed's 580 thousand dollar house and collect over 20,000 dollars on that sell I am sure that can cover your gas for a few days.
PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS AS ME TRYING TO BE A DICK. I am only saying that most business charge additional money on products to recover the time they spend on R&D.
Anyways good luck on your project, I am sure it will turn out real well.
Who did the porting on the Dart's? And why did you go that route over say the ETP heads or AFR/Trick Flow stuff?
Your comparision IMO is useless.
So should AFR not charge additional money for spending over 2 years making the first aftermarket LSX casting cylinder head?
Every business does this.
If Ford did all the R&D for GM, and once Ford came up with a bad *** car, just handed over the product to GM for free I bet GM could sell that car for thousands less.
Look at the parts that go into a subwoofer. Probally not even 50 dollars in a very top line sub, but they sell for 400+ dollars. Again your paying for that company to figure out how to make the best product.
Sorry that you had a loss on your last project, but when you sell Mad speed's 580 thousand dollar house and collect over 20,000 dollars on that sell I am sure that can cover your gas for a few days.
PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS AS ME TRYING TO BE A DICK. I am only saying that most business charge additional money on products to recover the time they spend on R&D.
Anyways good luck on your project, I am sure it will turn out real well.
Who did the porting on the Dart's? And why did you go that route over say the ETP heads or AFR/Trick Flow stuff?
10-04-2006, 03:33 PM
#28
Originally Posted by Blown04Z06
i came off sounding a little harsh about the cost to port these manifolds. $300-$500 seems to be the going price because that is what the consumer is paying.... im a bargin hunter what can i say, i have had 9 months to review everything i wanted to do to my car, i looked at all of the great results and i looked at what people said were bad results or failures in their cars, talked to dozens of people about different setups, heads, cam, intake, exhaust and the combination of putting all of the right parts together.
Dave from Dave's Total Performance ported the manifold. he has back to back dyno tests on this site the thread is ported LS2 vs non ported fast they are so damn close that its not worth the cost of going to a non ported fast 90. he sells LS2's for $450 ported and shipped after seeing this i called dave to see what the difference was in HIS ported fast vs non ported fast ON a 402/403 which is what i have. they ran this on a customers 408 with a 12 bolt, 4:10's, a4 and it made 534/491 SAE. the torque came on strong at 400wtq @ 3500 rpms, 400whp at 4300 rpms, and just tons of power that climbs from there, that is what i was looking for. 23X/24X 112 cam.
ported fast 90 vs non ported, im going off of rough memory since this was a month ago, 22 hp and 30 ftlbs and it wasn't just peak it raised power under the curve up and over the entire RPM band, that was impressive enough for me to sell the LS6 intake and Ported LPE TB. Before i found Dave's post, 90/90 wasnt an affordable option for me, it became one when i was quoted $895 ported/shipped to my door. LS6 was gone in 2 days. Fread Beans sells the LS2 tb for $280 shipped so i jumped on that buy as well. Porting the TB $125.00. So for $200 less than Tony Mamo's Fast 90 with port work, i had a complete ported intake/tb set up. Not to knock Tony, pay his prices and get his results, which are excellent, i cant afford him. JeremyF and Tony you should get a shirt made that says "You cant afford me". Cause i can't lol.
another one of Dave' clients has a LS2 403's picked up 40whp and 50wtq from his ported fast 90 alone. that post is on this site from the buyer. I quote, i unbolted the LS6 took it off and put the DTP ported fast 90 on and that was it.
so once again not to steal the glory in someone else thread, but i do understand it takes time when designing a port that works. Anyone that R&D's should get paid for it. Dave did say it takes him about 2 hours to do it. i can say this, I paid them, they ordered the fast 90 from comp same day, it was dropped of UPS 2 days later to them to port, they ported it the same day, shipped it back out and at my door UPS 3 days later frm ohio and im in Texas. I guess he just knows how to do them quick and doesnt see it as being a task which converts into charging the crap out of people or what i like to call an inconvenience fee.
And I agree with the LS2 tb design, GM's engineer on that one must not have been at the top of his graduating class. that thing had so much extra material in the front AND rear, you my as well just weld it up and call it a day. airflow has to be disrupted pretty bad with those tb's. port work will be done by mark shanner he lives 10mins from me, im picking it up tomorrow. www.s2performance.net if you want to check out his work $125 cause im local and could drop it off.
so any any case having people like dave and mark in this business makes dreams for people like myself that want to have the best but dont want to starve their family in the process to make a dream come thru.
Dave from Dave's Total Performance ported the manifold. he has back to back dyno tests on this site the thread is ported LS2 vs non ported fast they are so damn close that its not worth the cost of going to a non ported fast 90. he sells LS2's for $450 ported and shipped after seeing this i called dave to see what the difference was in HIS ported fast vs non ported fast ON a 402/403 which is what i have. they ran this on a customers 408 with a 12 bolt, 4:10's, a4 and it made 534/491 SAE. the torque came on strong at 400wtq @ 3500 rpms, 400whp at 4300 rpms, and just tons of power that climbs from there, that is what i was looking for. 23X/24X 112 cam.
ported fast 90 vs non ported, im going off of rough memory since this was a month ago, 22 hp and 30 ftlbs and it wasn't just peak it raised power under the curve up and over the entire RPM band, that was impressive enough for me to sell the LS6 intake and Ported LPE TB. Before i found Dave's post, 90/90 wasnt an affordable option for me, it became one when i was quoted $895 ported/shipped to my door. LS6 was gone in 2 days. Fread Beans sells the LS2 tb for $280 shipped so i jumped on that buy as well. Porting the TB $125.00. So for $200 less than Tony Mamo's Fast 90 with port work, i had a complete ported intake/tb set up. Not to knock Tony, pay his prices and get his results, which are excellent, i cant afford him. JeremyF and Tony you should get a shirt made that says "You cant afford me". Cause i can't lol.
another one of Dave' clients has a LS2 403's picked up 40whp and 50wtq from his ported fast 90 alone. that post is on this site from the buyer. I quote, i unbolted the LS6 took it off and put the DTP ported fast 90 on and that was it.
so once again not to steal the glory in someone else thread, but i do understand it takes time when designing a port that works. Anyone that R&D's should get paid for it. Dave did say it takes him about 2 hours to do it. i can say this, I paid them, they ordered the fast 90 from comp same day, it was dropped of UPS 2 days later to them to port, they ported it the same day, shipped it back out and at my door UPS 3 days later frm ohio and im in Texas. I guess he just knows how to do them quick and doesnt see it as being a task which converts into charging the crap out of people or what i like to call an inconvenience fee.
And I agree with the LS2 tb design, GM's engineer on that one must not have been at the top of his graduating class. that thing had so much extra material in the front AND rear, you my as well just weld it up and call it a day. airflow has to be disrupted pretty bad with those tb's. port work will be done by mark shanner he lives 10mins from me, im picking it up tomorrow. www.s2performance.net if you want to check out his work $125 cause im local and could drop it off.
so any any case having people like dave and mark in this business makes dreams for people like myself that want to have the best but dont want to starve their family in the process to make a dream come thru.
