FIRST WARHAWK BLOCK BUILT and RUN.
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
No need to apologize Jason, piston speed is a valid issue irregardless of the racing application. As you well know, physics are the undeniable rules of nature which dictate the outcome of any physical action.
The basic law of race car prep still prevails, "in order to win, you must finish the race." I can't think of any application where this does not apply.
What's interesting is to note the markedly different philosophical approaches used to design and build racing engines. Its obvious to me, this ranges from the full spectrum of approaches from simple to complex.
As an aside, I think many of us would prefer the rocket science approach if we could afford it and had the time. Regretably, the reality is most can't afford it and don't have the time or other resources to take this approach.
That's okay, as racing is like women. All types for all likes. Your approach and what you pay is up to you. Results vary and depend to a large part on the driver.
So keep asking those thought provoking questions. This helps us all and prompts the gearhead in us all to say, "I wonder if I did ....what would happen???"
The basic law of race car prep still prevails, "in order to win, you must finish the race." I can't think of any application where this does not apply.
What's interesting is to note the markedly different philosophical approaches used to design and build racing engines. Its obvious to me, this ranges from the full spectrum of approaches from simple to complex.
As an aside, I think many of us would prefer the rocket science approach if we could afford it and had the time. Regretably, the reality is most can't afford it and don't have the time or other resources to take this approach.
That's okay, as racing is like women. All types for all likes. Your approach and what you pay is up to you. Results vary and depend to a large part on the driver.
So keep asking those thought provoking questions. This helps us all and prompts the gearhead in us all to say, "I wonder if I did ....what would happen???"
Last edited by Z06er; Dec 9, 2006 at 07:35 PM.
Launching!
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
I am looking at doing one or two more projects in the next six months, hence my personal interest in Worlds Product and no I do not wish to waste my time with some specific individuals, to ask specific questions, as a potential consumer.
OT. Not that it is any of your business. I run a 12.3" tread DOT Competition Racing Tire on the 01 Z06 on the street. It is actually printed, "DOT Competition Racing Tire," on the side. So I would not call it just a street tire especially since the same manufactuer runs it in WC on the track. It is not some 9" tread width 275. On a dyno tun months ago this particular car made 829 rw torque but the clutch destroyed the flyweel in the process. It has since been replaced with high quality billet 4340 dual disc and flywheel. We will see what it does.
Again, I have not slightest idea who this person is. Take your issues elsewhere or too pm. per the forum guidelines.
OT. Not that it is any of your business. I run a 12.3" tread DOT Competition Racing Tire on the 01 Z06 on the street. It is actually printed, "DOT Competition Racing Tire," on the side. So I would not call it just a street tire especially since the same manufactuer runs it in WC on the track. It is not some 9" tread width 275. On a dyno tun months ago this particular car made 829 rw torque but the clutch destroyed the flyweel in the process. It has since been replaced with high quality billet 4340 dual disc and flywheel. We will see what it does.
Again, I have not slightest idea who this person is. Take your issues elsewhere or too pm. per the forum guidelines.
Last edited by BUYAMERICAN; Dec 9, 2006 at 08:14 PM.
I can't imagine what car this engine would fit in!
Time will tell if the block will hold up well enough to push this platform further, but its nice that one of them is running now. It would be nice to see that engine in Matts car for some real world testing!!
Kurt
Time will tell if the block will hold up well enough to push this platform further, but its nice that one of them is running now. It would be nice to see that engine in Matts car for some real world testing!!
Kurt
Originally Posted by matt346ls1
The engine is badass. Now they need to run it for a full season of racing at Milan and see if it will be a winner. I think it has potential in the right car. 
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Originally Posted by Katech
I'm almost sorry I brought up this piston speed debate. Now, I know there are exceptions out there, but coming from the world of Le Mans racing, these numbers are astronomical. When I mentioned these numbers to the president and technical director of Katech his reaction was similar to mine. He is the founder of Katech with nearly 30 years of road racing experience with Katech and before that with McLaren. I hold his technical opinion in the highest regard and consider him one of the brightest minds in race engine design today.
I am not poking fun at Katech since I know and respect mr. Kayle and Katech very much but he will tell you himself that a 2 inch stroke engine turning 15,000 rpm is much more stressful than a 4 inch engine turning 7500 rpm even though they have the same piston speed. That is all I am saying.
With that said though obviously 4+ inches Stroke and 9000+ RPM is pretty stressful AND has some pretty high piston speed!
I don't want you to think I am saying that piston speed doesn't matter but I see it more as when the heads give up. RPM and valve lift and valvetrain mass also usually tells you where the valvetrain will give up. RPM along with stroke tells you where the parts may give up but this is usually not what limits many engines that have pushrod valvetrains .
Now I will shut up and let people argue over the other stuff!
Originally Posted by racer7088
Jason,
I am not poking fun at Katech since I know and respect mr. Kayle and Katech very much but he will tell you himself that a 2 inch stroke engine turning 15,000 rpm is much more stressful than a 4 inch engine turning 7500 rpm even though they have the same piston speed. That is all I am saying.
With that said though obviously 4+ inches Stroke and 9000+ RPM is pretty stressful AND has some pretty high piston speed!
I don't want you to think I am saying that piston speed doesn't matter but I see it more as when the heads give up. RPM and valve lift and valvetrain mass also usually tells you where the valvetrain will give up. RPM along with stroke tells you where the parts may give up but this is usually not what limits many engines that have pushrod valvetrains .
Now I will shut up and let people argue over the other stuff!
I am not poking fun at Katech since I know and respect mr. Kayle and Katech very much but he will tell you himself that a 2 inch stroke engine turning 15,000 rpm is much more stressful than a 4 inch engine turning 7500 rpm even though they have the same piston speed. That is all I am saying.
With that said though obviously 4+ inches Stroke and 9000+ RPM is pretty stressful AND has some pretty high piston speed!
I don't want you to think I am saying that piston speed doesn't matter but I see it more as when the heads give up. RPM and valve lift and valvetrain mass also usually tells you where the valvetrain will give up. RPM along with stroke tells you where the parts may give up but this is usually not what limits many engines that have pushrod valvetrains .
Now I will shut up and let people argue over the other stuff!
How about this:
You guys arguing over piston speed and personal theories, please go start a new thread in the Advanced Tech forum, and leave this thread for discussing the project engine that is built and being tested.
We appreciate the jargon, but this isn't the proper channel to debate it in. Some of you, being sponsors yourselves, wouldn't appreciate it if people were taking things off-topic in one of your product threads. Lets get this one back on track please.
Thanks
You guys arguing over piston speed and personal theories, please go start a new thread in the Advanced Tech forum, and leave this thread for discussing the project engine that is built and being tested.
We appreciate the jargon, but this isn't the proper channel to debate it in. Some of you, being sponsors yourselves, wouldn't appreciate it if people were taking things off-topic in one of your product threads. Lets get this one back on track please.
Thanks
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
I agree Tony and the great thing about the Warhawk is that it can be made BIG in bore and stroke and the tall deck even bigger. This is one of the main reasons why to get these awesome blocks from World and GM so I see the piston speed deals as knocking their products instead of helping them out.
I will be doing several Warhawk engines for people and a big benefit of these blocks is more bore and more stroke. I'm also glad that ET is running a crazy combo like this right away because it's a good test on the strength and integrity of the Warhawk block for sure as well as their heads.
These super large CID capable aftermarket blocks make using some of the heads people are coming out with from ETP to GM themselves actually usable. WIth a small engine you wont see much benefit to the LS7, C5R, L92 stuff over good 15 degree heads but on these large tall deck World Products Warhawk builds these heads will finally come into their own. I applaud World for helping make this possible and it looks like the LSx world will move forward yet again.
I will be doing several Warhawk engines for people and a big benefit of these blocks is more bore and more stroke. I'm also glad that ET is running a crazy combo like this right away because it's a good test on the strength and integrity of the Warhawk block for sure as well as their heads.
These super large CID capable aftermarket blocks make using some of the heads people are coming out with from ETP to GM themselves actually usable. WIth a small engine you wont see much benefit to the LS7, C5R, L92 stuff over good 15 degree heads but on these large tall deck World Products Warhawk builds these heads will finally come into their own. I applaud World for helping make this possible and it looks like the LSx world will move forward yet again.
I just wish the world block was out earlier so I could have built one right off... but it just leaves something bigger/better to go with in the future 
Besides.... bigger is always better any class of racing where there is no limit in displacment, the absolute biggest thing that can be built, is the norm. There will now be more pratical big CI setups available now, and this should allow the lsx engine to break into alot of racing that it previously wasn't really visable to run it in, because you couldn't make enough reliable power with them, and they were just to expensive/too much breakage to really be a pratical powerplant.
Maybe someone will really make a good effort in an outlaw 10.5 ar with one how, hardcore has been trying and has doen very weill with the previously available parts, but now with this stuff they might be a formidable competitor... only time will tell.
I do have a question... at what rpm level is the dry sump needed with these motors? With the priority oiling I'd suspect that they can live at higher rpm's then the regular ls1/ls2 block can. I think the standard was anything seeing over 8000 rpm a dry sump with an ls1/2 block was needed, I'd suspect the oiling system in these would allow for a good amount more rpm.. where is the line? At what point does a dry sump become needed?
Besides.... bigger is always better any class of racing where there is no limit in displacment, the absolute biggest thing that can be built, is the norm. There will now be more pratical big CI setups available now, and this should allow the lsx engine to break into alot of racing that it previously wasn't really visable to run it in, because you couldn't make enough reliable power with them, and they were just to expensive/too much breakage to really be a pratical powerplant.
Maybe someone will really make a good effort in an outlaw 10.5 ar with one how, hardcore has been trying and has doen very weill with the previously available parts, but now with this stuff they might be a formidable competitor... only time will tell.
I do have a question... at what rpm level is the dry sump needed with these motors? With the priority oiling I'd suspect that they can live at higher rpm's then the regular ls1/ls2 block can. I think the standard was anything seeing over 8000 rpm a dry sump with an ls1/2 block was needed, I'd suspect the oiling system in these would allow for a good amount more rpm.. where is the line? At what point does a dry sump become needed?
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FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Originally Posted by Cool_Hand_Luke
The original post has some very impressive numbers but....
Who is building one for a street/strip set up? Using the LS7x heads etc. I would like to see those specs and dyno numbers.
Who is building one for a street/strip set up? Using the LS7x heads etc. I would like to see those specs and dyno numbers.
I agree Erik with you about the RPM potential, I Also went to SAM and have worked with a couple diffrent mountain motor race teams one of witch was nearly 800ci with a 5.125" stroke and routinely spun 8200+RPM with NOT ONE RPM related failure over several years!! They will do A-LOT more than the textbooks say they will as you very well know. Tell Jud Bryan Wolter said hello if you see him!
-Movin
-Movin
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Odessa, TX
I'm with Katech on this. These mountain motors do have piston speed problems. I know of someone that has a 814 and the builder told him not to go past 8000. It will live all day a 8000 and below you go past that, that is it. That being said how many people will come forth and say they have a BB chevy that is 454 ci that makes 950 na hp with conventional style heads on it, you can have free dyno session at my shop to prove it. Those ET heads have lots of potential but on a much smaller engine and the remind me of some very tweaked square port BB heads. His horsepower goal of 1200 is not out of the question on a 440 motor but that has been done with a destroked Prostock engine. As of right know he is only at 1.95 hp/inch he still has a way to go, to get 2.72. To get there is a very big feat, don't tell me show me.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Originally Posted by MAC4264
I'm with Katech on this. These mountain motors do have piston speed problems. I know of someone that has a 814 and the builder told him not to go past 8000. It will live all day a 8000 and below you go past that, that is it. That being said how many people will come forth and say they have a BB chevy that is 454 ci that makes 950 na hp with conventional style heads on it, you can have free dyno session at my shop to prove it. Those ET heads have lots of potential but on a much smaller engine and the remind me of some very tweaked square port BB heads. His horsepower goal of 1200 is not out of the question on a 440 motor but that has been done with a destroked Prostock engine. As of right know he is only at 1.95 hp/inch he still has a way to go, to get 2.72. To get there is a very big feat, don't tell me show me.
8 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
From: detroit, Mi
Originally Posted by 427
I can't imagine what car this engine would fit in!
Time will tell if the block will hold up well enough to push this platform further, but its nice that one of them is running now. It would be nice to see that engine in Matts car for some real world testing!!
Kurt
Time will tell if the block will hold up well enough to push this platform further, but its nice that one of them is running now. It would be nice to see that engine in Matts car for some real world testing!!
Kurt
Ummm.... did you guys read response #86, where I asked all the piston speed stuff NOT take this thread off topic? If you want to discuss piston speed arguments, go start a new thread please.
Keep this one on track please!
Keep this one on track please!
Originally Posted by Z06er
No need to apologize Jason, piston speed is a valid issue irregardless of the racing application. As you well know, physics are the undeniable rules of nature which dictate the outcome of any physical action.
The basic law of race car prep still prevails, "in order to win, you must finish the race." I can't think of any application where this does not apply.
What's interesting is to note the markedly different philosophical approaches used to design and build racing engines. Its obvious to me, this ranges from the full spectrum of approaches from simple to complex.
As an aside, I think many of us would prefer the rocket science approach if we could afford it and had the time. Regretably, the reality is most can't afford it and don't have the time or other resources to take this approach.
That's okay, as racing is like women. All types for all likes. Your approach and what you pay is up to you. Results vary and depend to a large part on the driver.
So keep asking those thought provoking questions. This helps us all and prompts the gearhead in us all to say, "I wonder if I did ....what would happen???"
The basic law of race car prep still prevails, "in order to win, you must finish the race." I can't think of any application where this does not apply.
What's interesting is to note the markedly different philosophical approaches used to design and build racing engines. Its obvious to me, this ranges from the full spectrum of approaches from simple to complex.
As an aside, I think many of us would prefer the rocket science approach if we could afford it and had the time. Regretably, the reality is most can't afford it and don't have the time or other resources to take this approach.
That's okay, as racing is like women. All types for all likes. Your approach and what you pay is up to you. Results vary and depend to a large part on the driver.
So keep asking those thought provoking questions. This helps us all and prompts the gearhead in us all to say, "I wonder if I did ....what would happen???"
For someone as book smart as you portray yourself, Irregardless is not a word.
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Yes, this is true. A bad habit of mine. Because of this, I delegate this task to a dedicated staff to proof and format my work. My time is too valuable for the small stuff. But this is for fun, so what the heck. There's typo's too, so go for it.
TECH Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,261
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by V6 Bird
For someone as book smart as you portray yourself, Irregardless is not a word.
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Irregardless
TECH Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,261
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Z06er
Yes, this is true. A bad habit of mine. Because of this, I delegate this task to a dedicated staff to proof and format my work. My time is too valuable for the small stuff. But this is for fun, so what the heck. There's typo's too, so go for it.
Any news on the Warhawk LSX heads?
I thought they were changing valve sizes and then would post up flow #s???