"LS4" Oil Pump Information!
01-27-2007, 10:22 AM
#22
FormerVendor
Dragaholic,
I run the normal race type tolerance which are still in eth factory range but a little on the looser side of GM's specs. The oil clearances and the pressure are what determine how much oil will flow through the engine.
The higher pressure pump will cause more flow through the engine if that higher pressure is actually reached and once that higher pressure is reached.
The high volume pumps can be either lower pressure or higher pressure as well depending on the relief valve and the clearances used in the engine.
If you have 60 psi of oil pressure at 6500 rpm with a high volume pump it isn't pumping anymore oil than if you had 60 psi oil pressure with a standard volume pump.
In the end thoughyou can make more pressure with a high volume and you can get to that pressure faster at lower rpm since it has more displacement.
The probably need the higher volume on the cars with the DOD since it may bleed more off with that stuff than a normal engine and the aluminum engines in general also have much more oil clearance growth when they get hot than an iron engine.
Like Jrod said though if you don't need this pressure it's just more load on the engine that can't get turned into power at the crank where it's doing you good. If you need the extra volume and pressure then you need it but then you need to make sure you have some extra oil capacity since at higher engine speeds the oil may build up some in the top end depending on what you have done.
I run the normal race type tolerance which are still in eth factory range but a little on the looser side of GM's specs. The oil clearances and the pressure are what determine how much oil will flow through the engine.
The higher pressure pump will cause more flow through the engine if that higher pressure is actually reached and once that higher pressure is reached.
The high volume pumps can be either lower pressure or higher pressure as well depending on the relief valve and the clearances used in the engine.
If you have 60 psi of oil pressure at 6500 rpm with a high volume pump it isn't pumping anymore oil than if you had 60 psi oil pressure with a standard volume pump.
In the end thoughyou can make more pressure with a high volume and you can get to that pressure faster at lower rpm since it has more displacement.
The probably need the higher volume on the cars with the DOD since it may bleed more off with that stuff than a normal engine and the aluminum engines in general also have much more oil clearance growth when they get hot than an iron engine.
Like Jrod said though if you don't need this pressure it's just more load on the engine that can't get turned into power at the crank where it's doing you good. If you need the extra volume and pressure then you need it but then you need to make sure you have some extra oil capacity since at higher engine speeds the oil may build up some in the top end depending on what you have done.
Originally Posted by Dragaholic
I'll have a fresh new motor built by Erik at HKE. Not sure on the tolerances, but I'm pretty sure they're tight. That's just a guess though. I may not need a high pressure, but possibly a high volume. I certainly don't want to ruin a several thousand dollar engine and want to make sure that I plan it out right beforehand.
01-28-2007, 03:49 PM
#23
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Looks like I will be swapping out oil pumps this week. Anyone want a low mileage ls4 oil pump?
Matt, if I did keep my pump how many quarts of oil would I need to run to be safe with it. I know the most on the stock pan is seven would that be enough?
Matt, if I did keep my pump how many quarts of oil would I need to run to be safe with it. I know the most on the stock pan is seven would that be enough?
01-29-2007, 08:29 AM
#24
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FWIW I have an LS4 pump that I recently put in w/ my G5-X2 install. I also run a Dewitts racing radiator w/ a left side internal oil cooler. I run Amsoil 5w40 in the motor.
Before any mods I had 30-31psi hot idle and 42-43 hot cruise... after my oil cooler I was seeing 28ish hot idle and 38-39 hot cruise.
Now w/ the LS4 I'm at 49 hot idle and 55-57 hot cruise... I've never had a pressure drop... never had any issues. I've but almost 1000 miles on the car w/ plenty of full throttle... never a pressure drop.
Plus, as the pump wears in more the pressure will drop a little.
Before any mods I had 30-31psi hot idle and 42-43 hot cruise... after my oil cooler I was seeing 28ish hot idle and 38-39 hot cruise.
Now w/ the LS4 I'm at 49 hot idle and 55-57 hot cruise... I've never had a pressure drop... never had any issues. I've but almost 1000 miles on the car w/ plenty of full throttle... never a pressure drop.
Plus, as the pump wears in more the pressure will drop a little.
01-29-2007, 09:19 AM
#25
Which pump would you recommend for me ? I have a stock 98 with 117 k miles on it. Oil pressure has always read low ~ 8psi hot idle and around 35 psi cruising at 2k rpms. ~65 psi cold start. This is with m1 0-40 or a m1 10-30/15-50 mix. Oil analysis has always shown extremely low wear. Putting ls6 heads and a 224 cam in next month. any opinions appreciated.
01-29-2007, 11:14 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by Cobra4B
FWIW I have an LS4 pump that I recently put in w/ my G5-X2 install. I also run a Dewitts racing radiator w/ a left side internal oil cooler. I run Amsoil 5w40 in the motor.
Before any mods I had 30-31psi hot idle and 42-43 hot cruise... after my oil cooler I was seeing 28ish hot idle and 38-39 hot cruise.
Now w/ the LS4 I'm at 49 hot idle and 55-57 hot cruise... I've never had a pressure drop... never had any issues. I've but almost 1000 miles on the car w/ plenty of full throttle... never a pressure drop.
Plus, as the pump wears in more the pressure will drop a little.
Before any mods I had 30-31psi hot idle and 42-43 hot cruise... after my oil cooler I was seeing 28ish hot idle and 38-39 hot cruise.
Now w/ the LS4 I'm at 49 hot idle and 55-57 hot cruise... I've never had a pressure drop... never had any issues. I've but almost 1000 miles on the car w/ plenty of full throttle... never a pressure drop.
Plus, as the pump wears in more the pressure will drop a little.
I have around 800 on mine right now and the pressure rarely drops below 60 psi. When hot it may go slightly below 60 psi but not much. It is not uncommon to see 80 psi at wot and 65-70 psi at cold cruise. This is with german castrol 0w30. I may try and make a video of cold and warm idle as a comparison.
01-29-2007, 11:23 AM
#29
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If it were to pump the pan dry I would obviously notice a pressure drop right? Also I wonder if seven quarts is in the safe range? I have yet to get a firm answer on this.
Cobra4b how did your pump act when new and how many miles are on it now?
Never mind the mileage question saw it in your other post.
Cobra4b how did your pump act when new and how many miles are on it now?
Never mind the mileage question saw it in your other post.
01-29-2007, 11:37 AM
#30
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^ It's come down a few PSI... it's in the high 50's at hot cruise now whereas when first in it was over 60 hot crusise. My buddy Joe (hpaddict) is running 5w30 and is at 45psi idle and 55 cruise.
I have a very different oil pan than you and I have an oil cooler.
Yes... if the sump was sucked dry you're oil pressure would plummet and the bottom end would go south in a hurry. If you haven't noticed any pressure drop you should be fine.
I don't know how much the camaro pan holds... the vette pan will easily take 2 quarts over full. It's spec'd for 6.5, but 7 quarts takes it to the full line and I run an extra quart when running an HPDE.
I have a very different oil pan than you and I have an oil cooler.
Yes... if the sump was sucked dry you're oil pressure would plummet and the bottom end would go south in a hurry. If you haven't noticed any pressure drop you should be fine.
I don't know how much the camaro pan holds... the vette pan will easily take 2 quarts over full. It's spec'd for 6.5, but 7 quarts takes it to the full line and I run an extra quart when running an HPDE.
01-29-2007, 11:52 AM
#31
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The f body oil pan will hold seven quarts, which is what i am running now to be on the safe side. I have driven the hell out of this thing and have yet to notice a pressure drop at all and I do keep an eye on it. I don't want to swap out pumps but I might just for peace of mind.
If I make a vid how can I post it up?
If I make a vid how can I post it up?
01-29-2007, 02:03 PM
#32
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Well I use www.photobucket.com for mine.... host it there, then link it in the thread. FWIW if it's not a problem I'd never want to pull the radiator, my oil cooler lines, steering rack, and pulley off just for that.
Really... if it was sucking the pan dry your car would be dead by now.
Part of this thread sounds like a good dose of CYA (cover your ***) by GM. However.... it is true that too high a volume pump can/will suck the sump dry.
Really... if it was sucking the pan dry your car would be dead by now.
Part of this thread sounds like a good dose of CYA (cover your ***) by GM. However.... it is true that too high a volume pump can/will suck the sump dry.
01-29-2007, 02:41 PM
#33
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Some of you guys would cringe if you saw some of the racers I know of. Guys running high volume, but low pressure pumps on Gen I SBC motors, and then draining a couple of quarts out of their motor right before they go make runs in the final. The red lights on in the car aren't shift lights, its the oil pressure light coming on. It'll gain them a few, so they take every advantage possible.
Now, on the C5, the motor holds 7 quarts if you jack the car up when you drain the oil. If not, you leave .5 quart behind, and the capacity is 7 qts. GM does advise an overfill for road racing. Why is that? Its because they don't want you to uncover the pickup if you slosh the oil, or pump the pan partially dry. Keep that in mind...
Also, just because you can put 9 quarts in your motor doesn't mean it is the best idea. If you crank is having to swing through a pool of oil that is in the middle of the counterweights, kiss Mr. Horsepower goodbye. Do a search on windage and oil aeration.
Again, please don't mis-understand my point. I'm not telling folks to stay away from a certain pump. What I'm trying to say is size your pump appropriately for your motor and your requirements.
Now, on the C5, the motor holds 7 quarts if you jack the car up when you drain the oil. If not, you leave .5 quart behind, and the capacity is 7 qts. GM does advise an overfill for road racing. Why is that? Its because they don't want you to uncover the pickup if you slosh the oil, or pump the pan partially dry. Keep that in mind...
Also, just because you can put 9 quarts in your motor doesn't mean it is the best idea. If you crank is having to swing through a pool of oil that is in the middle of the counterweights, kiss Mr. Horsepower goodbye. Do a search on windage and oil aeration.
Again, please don't mis-understand my point. I'm not telling folks to stay away from a certain pump. What I'm trying to say is size your pump appropriately for your motor and your requirements.
01-29-2007, 03:15 PM
#34
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Both of you guys make very good points. I guess I am trying to get all the info I can about this as I really love this car and I am not dying to replace this motor. I do agree that my motor would be dead by now if it were a problem and I figured as much. The motor has seen 6600 rpms on this pump without so much as a stutter from the oil gauge on 6 quarts of oil multiple times.
At the same time I pride myself on being very informed on the work I do to my car. I honestly bought this pump as an alternative to the ls6 pump and it is my fault for not doing more homework.
I will probably keep the pump in for a while and if I don't feel better about it down the road then I will swap and to think I almost ported this thing. lol
On another note I think I will try and make a vid to put in the other thread to give people who are interested in this pump an idea of what it is about.
Thanks for the input you guys have given.
At the same time I pride myself on being very informed on the work I do to my car. I honestly bought this pump as an alternative to the ls6 pump and it is my fault for not doing more homework.
I will probably keep the pump in for a while and if I don't feel better about it down the road then I will swap and to think I almost ported this thing. lol On another note I think I will try and make a vid to put in the other thread to give people who are interested in this pump an idea of what it is about.
Thanks for the input you guys have given.
01-29-2007, 03:40 PM
#35
I almost bought one of these pumps.. I think I'll drop the extra 60 bones to get a ported/shimmed pump meant for my engine. I don't need the highest volume/pressure esp since my car can tend to consume oil and I don't want to lose HP by adding parasitic loss. All I want is a little extra insurance for the 6600 shift points that the Heads/Cam kit getting installed requires.
01-29-2007, 08:31 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
Some of you guys would cringe if you saw some of the racers I know of. Guys running high volume, but low pressure pumps on Gen I SBC motors, and then draining a couple of quarts out of their motor right before they go make runs in the final. The red lights on in the car aren't shift lights, its the oil pressure light coming on. It'll gain them a few, so they take every advantage possible.
Now, on the C5, the motor holds 7 quarts if you jack the car up when you drain the oil. If not, you leave .5 quart behind, and the capacity is 7 qts. GM does advise an overfill for road racing. Why is that? Its because they don't want you to uncover the pickup if you slosh the oil, or pump the pan partially dry. Keep that in mind...
Also, just because you can put 9 quarts in your motor doesn't mean it is the best idea. If you crank is having to swing through a pool of oil that is in the middle of the counterweights, kiss Mr. Horsepower goodbye. Do a search on windage and oil aeration.
Again, please don't mis-understand my point. I'm not telling folks to stay away from a certain pump. What I'm trying to say is size your pump appropriately for your motor and your requirements.
Now, on the C5, the motor holds 7 quarts if you jack the car up when you drain the oil. If not, you leave .5 quart behind, and the capacity is 7 qts. GM does advise an overfill for road racing. Why is that? Its because they don't want you to uncover the pickup if you slosh the oil, or pump the pan partially dry. Keep that in mind...
Also, just because you can put 9 quarts in your motor doesn't mean it is the best idea. If you crank is having to swing through a pool of oil that is in the middle of the counterweights, kiss Mr. Horsepower goodbye. Do a search on windage and oil aeration.
Again, please don't mis-understand my point. I'm not telling folks to stay away from a certain pump. What I'm trying to say is size your pump appropriately for your motor and your requirements.
01-29-2007, 09:40 PM
#38
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The problem was low oil pressure on many built motors especially at hi oil temps.
What you might call hot cruise (220-240 deg F or so) with OK oil pressure gets very marginal on a track day at 290+ deg F oil temps.
Both my 383 LT1s run 45-50 at hot idle and 65 psi at hot cruise. My 402 was running 25 psi at hot idle and 45 psi at hot cruise and 35 psi on the track. In my mind that is not enough pressure to get the oil the places I want it.
The motor is out and I am going with the new pump. I had the 295 Melling (stock replacement) in it previously.
Perry
What you might call hot cruise (220-240 deg F or so) with OK oil pressure gets very marginal on a track day at 290+ deg F oil temps.
Both my 383 LT1s run 45-50 at hot idle and 65 psi at hot cruise. My 402 was running 25 psi at hot idle and 45 psi at hot cruise and 35 psi on the track. In my mind that is not enough pressure to get the oil the places I want it.
The motor is out and I am going with the new pump. I had the 295 Melling (stock replacement) in it previously.
Perry
01-29-2007, 09:40 PM
#39
Originally Posted by N4cer
What was the problem with the ported/shimmed TSP LS6 oil pumps that led people to try this new pump in the first place? I've never heard of them failing.