LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

How will they tune it? Its not running though the same setup as I...

Unlessssss they use the same heads, intake manifold, headers, and exh system. WHich isnt impossible, but will they do so?

Okay, Ill give that a shot, but I still wanna see the general publics response and whatever is beneficial I will filter that out and use what is useful and proper for my application..

crap another thing to consider, I have a breand new fuel pump inmy car, but its a stocker... and I know I have to change my injectors now... will the fuel pump be okay as well???

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

How do you define a "driveable 500rwhp N/A LS1" and expect it to meet your goals? One of the few 500rwhp numbers that are believeable around here has come from Patrick G's 238/242 112 cam. Keep in mind that one has 16* of overlap, compared to the 10.5* of your TV3 cam. By most any definition, it would be much less driveable than your example. Also, realize that Pat made those numbers through a 10-bolt, with an electric water pump, a pro-ported Fast 90, and arguably one of the best aftermarket castings available for a 346.

Lets use HP/ci to "scale" a few scenarios up from 346 to 402ci to get a feel for where you want to be. Keep in mind that a bigger arm, and the resulting cubes are going to help make more torque across the board, so lets focus for now on the HP side for the goal you've set.

"typical" 224/224 #'s: 390rwhp avg with stock castings, 420rwhp avg with heads ~ 453rwhp to 488rwhp

your TV3 rwhp #'s: 430rwhp ~ 500rwhp

Mamo "Blue Pill" combo rwhp #'s: 475rwhp ~ 551rwhp

Keep in mind that Tony's setup was also tuned to the T to get those numbers from a 224/228 cam - the best exhaust available for a C5, EWP, Pulleys + countless hours into the tune. I would expect a more typical 346 to make something like 450rwhp without the EWP and with your 12 bolt.

450rwhp ~ 523rwhp

To that end, here is some good reading for you, from the man himself.

403 w/AFR 205's (A4 with converter) puts down 490/465
Same combo ~ build and engine dyno results
Through an M6, this would damn near nail your goal on the head!

Now, this one is a little wilder, probably not as driveable as you would prefer...
403 LS2 / AFR 205’s lays down 550+ RWHP

Hopefully, somewhere in this lengthy post, you find the answer you are looking for.

Good Luck!

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

to check PTV clearance you have a couple of options, if you have a cam to roll over in the motor then bolt the head on the engine with modeling clay(or playdo for cheap)on the top of the piston, go thru two compleat revolutions and then pull the head off and measur the thickness of the clay smashed on top of the piston, if you do it befor you have a cam then you can set the head on with a light weight checker spring installed and measure the max valve lift with a dial indicator. you need to have a degree wheel to know what lift you can achieve at what crank position as differant cams have max lift at differant intake center lines(not to be confused with lobe seperation angle) if you dont have any of the tools to do this a cheater way to get a little POM befor tq your heads down is the have the cam properly installed and set the head on the motor without a gasket, roll over and make sure it dont bind or try to lift the head, if all is good the gasket thicknessunless you are on the verge of touching or running a thin head gasket) will give you the clearance you need. as for CR well dependant on the amount of overlap the cam has you can run more static compression with high overlap and still not have as much dynamic compression with the cam in the equation. somethin to think about. as for fuel, the stock pump will support it...maybe...if its new and a good one....but will be over worked and short lived

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

I agree.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

Max lift has very little to do with PTV clearance. Most interference occurs at the point just before or just after TDC, and the valves are usually just off the seat at those point.

Don't get to hung up on the LSA, as it is really just a byproduct of the right VE's to make the power where you want it. Especially consider a tighter LSA if you are thinking about going bigger than 236 or so on the duration. Remember that a wide LSA and a long duration is only going to push the power peak higher, whle costing you torque and response on the bottom end.

Everything that goes into designing a cam is a compromise of one form or another.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

Here your explanation of "max lift" is spot on. However, most of the engine builders here would you for recommending playdoh, as it can be rather elastic, and would not give an accurate read of PTV.

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

Don't get to hung up on the LSA, as it is really just a byproduct of the right VE's to make the power where you want it. Especially consider a tighter LSA if you are thinking about going bigger than 236 or so on the duration. Remember that a wide LSA and a long duration is only going to push the power peak higher, whle costing you torque and response on the bottom end............

well you are right that the LSA needs to be relitive to the duration for a piticular cam but DONT rule it out of the equation by no means, no matter how perfect the tune you cant tune out the natural mechanics of the cam, i have run a 242/248 cam on a lt1 with a 113LSA although it did not make the hp # we wanted it made 40 foot pounds of tq more than peak hp, and at a low rpm. was a absolute beast on the street and track, didnt MPH great but ET was there for sure. and this was a true daily driver(sun,snow,rain)
and for the playdo.lol well you have to examine it closely, maybe do it a couple of times, you can tell if it sticks, pulls apart, or other wise not acurate if you pay close attention it can be done, although not prefered.lol

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

Ok answer me this, through my Tv3, if I was running a higher CR would i go from 430rwhp to about 440+rwhp? and would it also not be mroe drivable since more cr = more tq, generally speaking and if so, lets take that figure, Ill run a Fast 90/90 and letssay I gain no power through it, since its needed for a 402 to run larger diameter runners to feet the bigger cubes, through bigger ports and valves... So with the 440whp figure translating that to a 402 would make about 511rwhp, in which would be acceptable, only if its more drivable than a tv3....

So based on that, I wouldnt see it being too difficult making a a figure near 520whp... 510whp is acceptable, but just isnt my goal.. Im shooting for 520, but im not gonna whine if it makes 510. Its good enough, under one condition.... if and ONLY IF its more drivable than my Tv3 was..

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

exsplain more specificly the issues you were having with your previous cam/combo, surging,bucking,stalling.....???what rpm did it idle at? what gear was run with it, what stall(or manual)? and more of what driving conditions you do with it. pleasure weekend drives with occasional track blast? daily comute to work? everyone has there own oppion on what is a DD or streetable.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

Three things that appear to have been at fault for poor drivability, IMO.

1) Low compression (10.75 if I found it right)
2) Larger than needed ports = no air velocity (not a big fan of ported stock castings)
3) TUNE, TUNE, TUNE!

It's also worth asking if the cam was degreed, and you are sure of the ICL it was installed at, as well as whether or not the 10.75:1 compression was measured or assumed. Cams of that size need closer to 11.5:1.

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

well the guy has a pretty respected name, besides being a newbie(compared to other tuners) He is a young guy, Id say looks mid 20s. and his shop is fairly new(like 1 year old) But has many satisfied customers...

yes 10.75 compression ratio... that is low? I mean compared to the stock CR which is 10.0 :1 Id say its an improvement,I wonder how cam only Tv3 guys feel... and I am only running a 3.73 gear, vs many who go 4.10 with a cam such as mine...

My ports may be larger than needed, Im not gonna say no. I dunno how the 862 casting 5.3 stage 2.5 heads from TSp compare with stock 241s...

So maybe after all the 5.3s will be better with the bigger cube 402...

So it may be one of those issue, I agree.

So can you tune a cam of mine to be tame at idle. could i leave off idle by slowly relasing the clutch with a cam like that? or must I rev it past 1500 rpms? Or maybe Ill just increase my idle so I dont have to deal with that issue I dunno...

also sometimes the idle which is set at a stock 800rpms, would fluctuate and drop down to 500, is that all to do with the tune or is that a normal thing you will experience with a cam of that size, regardless...?

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

Well Im not new to LS1s, but I am new with the 402.. But that doesnt change anything..

If someone was to properly explain to me, the definition of surging, bucking, and stalling(which Im pretty sure I know what stalling means) but just for kicks, someoe plase give me the proper definitions of these words so I can tell you which of those I am experienceing and would like to avoid with my new setup, I am about to decide on...


The car is a 2002 Z28, I have all supporting intake and exhaust bolt ons, aluminum flywheel and LS7 clutch, PSt aluminum DS, Moser 12 bolt, trutrac 3.73s.. I have a T-56, in which I rebuilt in my trans class and have a minor issue downshifting to 2nd gear only after I shifted past 2nd gear to 3rd, 4th, whatever...

It idles at stock 800, I believe... I dont remember because I only drove the car for a day, but Im pretty sure...

Now for some reason I felt like explaining how the whole issue started:

When they dynoed my car, We heard some rattling, which appeared to be coming from the drivetrain.. They didnt know what it was. They took off the valvecovers and checked all the rockerarms, but I think a rocker bolt was loose, or maybe they just said that and found nothing wrong, either way, the problem was supposedly fixed.

The rattling went away... they dynoed the car more and gave it to me. It idles fine, didnt die, like it did when it was untuned... I already could tell, I was sacrificing low RPMs, when I would accelerate from a stoplight, that Id have to give a bit more throttle before I fully depressed the clutch pedal... But I felt the pull at high RPMs and I enjoyed it, the day was kinda rainy as well. SO I didnt get to go WOT too much withoutspinning, but did a few placed on the way home...

anyhow long story short, the car I noticed would drop idle once in a while but fix itself... by the time I drove home, which was about 80 miles from the shop.. I noticed the rattling came back.

I parked the car and said Ill deal with it tomorrow.


the next day, I started the car and was on my way to the mechanic, the car died in the middle of the road a 1/4 miled down the road from my house...
My mechanic shop was just 1/8 of a mile down the road, I walked there and asked if they can push it there... I exlplained to them my problem and they came with carb cleaner and sprayed in my TB and it fired up...

they didnt wanna push itto the shop So I called a tow truck and towed it there, then from there I towed it to another shop and there they changed my fuel pump... the car still wouldnt fire up. they diagnosed it and a DTC came up Po336, CKP cant recognize tdc.

they changed the CKP sensor, checked the cam sensor, everything.. they caouldnt find anything wrong. SO I had it towed all the way to my tuner and after a week they found out it was a broken reluctor wheel..

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

1. CR not to low but not optimal
2. port velocity not optimal for low end power
3. not optimal but not to far off that it could not be tuned to drive good,just not as much power as could be acheived if they were optimal
4. stumbling diping idle is deff a tuning issue, the idle needs to be raised within reason, base running airflow need to be dialed in, adaptive idle need to be fixed. alot of so called tunners just add an *** load of idle timing to mask other issues. if its somethin that happens very rarely and it makes you think hum what was that. that is normal. not somethin you live with contantly, thats poor tuning.
5. yes i could tune it.as i am sure there is someone compitent in your area with HP tuners. im doing a cam only MS4 as soon as he gets it back in together and is his ONLY car. i didnt recomend this cam for power under the curve but he is 17 and heard a sound clip on Utube.lol

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

sorry another thing I forgot to mention was my use of the vehicle

The car is a Daily driver, it sees the dragstrip a few passes per month, and it will see a roadcourse a few times a year to. So it is used in almsot every application...

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

if they tuned it with obvious mechanical issues then that was the first mistake, any machanical issues should have been addressed first. if it had a bad pump then all the fueling tables they set up were off, bad reluctor wheel then ignition problems and who knows what they did to try and tune around it? mechanical issues will make you chase your tail all day long tryin to tune it out. you just go in circles and get nowhere

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

well if you want that kind of HP na then you will have to comprimise somewhere, you are gonna give up some bottem end, you will have to rev alittle more off the line, but as soon as it is rolling you should have all the power you need. it should not dip down way under idle while coming to a stop, it sould not constantly search for a idle while sitting at a light,it should not ramdomly die. it should have somewhat of a consistant(for lack of better word)choppy lope. that much cam is likely to surge under low rpm, low load conditions,example if you are trying to idle thru a large parking lot or thru heavy traffic at a light with little to no throttle being given. you can make it very livable but not compleatly go away with very large cams. espeacialy when you are in between the optimal gear if you are not pulling or decelerating. i think you will not be happy with more than a 236-242 range cam for the lower rpm power you want to feel, if you dont get the # you are after then its time to think about AFR's or something to keep that low end velocity up and still make #'s . you will think and feel like you have more power with a smaller cam than with maxed out cam on the street for your conditions tho the dyno #'s wont reflect it the seat of the pants will

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

If its that imposible with the heads Im running, then Im fine with lower than 520whp, but around what numbers should I be making then?

If at the moment I run a driveable small/mild cam, LS6 manifold and my pacesetter ceramic coated headers, and the 5.3 heads though the 402 is it gonna be impossible to make over 500+whp? even at 11.2 cr? and yes I dont care for a choppy idle as much as other do.



Also another think I forgot to mention, in which bothered me the most was..

the car was very jerkey especially in 1st and 2nd gear. so if Im below 1500rpms.. I think even below 2000rpms and cruising
in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and even 4th, the car would jerk a lot. Kind of like when people learn how to drive a manual for the first time and it just jerks around. like that... That bothered me the most from all of those issues, from ebing driveable..

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

Well I dont wanna bash the guy, he is really cool, but do you think he knew that a potential problem existed and tuned it anyway?

Man I gave so much money for a new exhaust and a tune, plus more for a speed density tune, since my MAF wasnt working and even more, since my o2 sensors werent working... and all thats gone down the drain..

and my tune was probably not at its best, cuz of the fuel pump too

I dont understand how something can get in the engine and mess up the reluctor wheel... seems near impossible I changed the oil pump, and all valvetrain. I never pulled off the oil pan I dunno what got in the crankcase.. IF that was even the case.

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

i have no idea who the guy is, how nice he is or how good he is, i wasnt there so cant give a professional opion on what went on, but from what i can gather about what you are sayin it sound to me like he was just flat jerkin you around, sounds like alot of problems to run into on a single job, and get more money from a customer for this that and the other, but like i said i wasnt there... but if he was taking things apart and checking them to start with, then tuned it anyway, then had to go back and fix it, sounds *** backward to me, instead of doing a speed density tune for more money why not put a maf on it for less money. tho the VE tables need corrected anyway to make snapier fuel transitions, without the O2's open loop speed density has to be spot on in all driving conditions and temps because it goes strictly on what you command it and has no way to correct as do the closed loop of the O2's........

1999vetteroo

iTrader: (15)

You might want to look at my first results from my 402 setup!



https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...743&highlight=

Your getting some sound advise in this thread. And they are being nice about it. As was said before, 520rwhp with those heads and your definition of good drivabilty is not going to happen. I know from experience! Sounds like your geting the same motor I have.

By the way, use the .03 gaskets and not the .04. That 236/236 (on a 112 though) will be a great cam. Don't ask why, just do it.

Good luck.