edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

Thats bucking.
From the way you're describing what you want as far as driveability, you need to stop worrying about what kinda numbers its gonna make, build or have someone build a motor to suit your tastes, and then it is what it is.
If you want a mild 500+ rwhp car, then build a much bigger motor, with aftermarket heads, and a mild cam. You WILL NOT make 500 + rwhp with budget heads, and a small cam and low compression. If you jack up the compression to try and make power, and throw in a mild cam for drivability, then your dynamic will be too high, you'll have to pull timing to keep it from pinging, and subsequently kill the power.
We've built several 403s over 500 hp. Just finishing up another now. I can tell you from experience, you wont make that kinda power with a set of budget heads, and a small cam.
And for almost any cam, you'll have to give it some gas to slip the clutch. You need to get over that. Thats just a side affect of a bigger cam. You shouldnt have to rev it to 2 grand or nothin, but you cant just let the clutch out without giving it some gas.

Ryne @ CMS

iTrader: (10)

your TV3 car drove great! didnt have any surging or bucking ! i am sorry to here that you didnt like the driveability.
also your car came to me as is, i didnt do any work on it!, i think you need to state that. also you drove the car to me untuned then drove it home the minute you got off the freeway to your house you said it died! from either the damged reluctor wheel, or fuel pump i dont know i wasnt there.

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

End of subject, edcmat-l1 nailed it perfectly.

turbo'd stang

Erik from HKE has sent us 2 of his 408's with ET 5.3 heads and a 244/248 cam. With an LS6 intake, both cars made 500rwhp. I would think with a better intake/tb, you could get close to your 520. Both cars are VERY driveable. One guy drove to Fl in his car, got 26mpg. They both were SD tuned.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

LSGunZ28

Did you swap all the parts at the same time? Seems to me that you switched from a 241 head (~200cc inlet port) to ported 5.3 heads (220+ cc ports), a much larger cam which trades bottom end torque for top end HP (not the Torquer the name would lead you to believe), and lost some inertia from a light weight aluminium flywheel.

I think all of those factors contribute to the problem. Add the fact that the cam really comes to life at higher engine speeds, and it all makes for a setup that will feel much softer than stock down low.

I think there are some bugs you could work out of this setup, and save a lot of money over building a 402.
* swap the stock flywheel back over - this will make a big difference in low speed tractability
* sell your budget 5.3 heads and invest in a set of AFR 205's - these heads are designed to improve power all over, but especially on the low end
* consider if the TV3 cam is really what you want

The Torquer is supposed to peak at 6400 and pull well to 6700 if installed at the right centerline. You could get 95% of the top end and big improvement in the bottom end with a much smaller cam. I've seen Predator-Z recommend a 224/224 .609/.581 111+2 cam that would give you excellent torque with just 346 cubic inches.

As for heads, mill those AFR's to 59cc's and run a .040 thick gasket for the best results with your TV3 cam. If you do go with less cam, 61cc's is probably as small as you want to go.

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

Thats right... But the car did feel like i was jerking when I test drove it...

and I am not blaming you for anything, thats why I was careful withh my choice of words I used, because I appreciated the work you guys did..

what did happen was a couple of times the rpms fluctuated when Iw as on the freeway, due to traffic, so when I came to a stop, thats what happened, itdropped from 800 to 500 and rose back up.. But this could have been a fuel issue at the time? I dunno... But this was miles before my fuel pump went out..

and when I test drove it, like i said, the car was jerking around I dunno if its a low RPM tuning issue, which Im sure is not because you finished tuning it. but maybe its just what having a bigger cam does, below 2000 rpms it would jerk and was really uncomfortable, I couldnt do anything about it, the only time it wouldnt jer is if I gave it more than 10% throttle...

and the least of my concerns is the below 1500 rpms the car had absolutely no pull... still a concern, but the least of them. I could get used to it, if that were to also happen in the 402 I plan on building... But the jerkyness, no Id want to avoid that 100%..

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

So can you tell me what kind of power I am going to make with a mild cam, 11.2 cr due to those -10cc pistons and gasket, from a 402 and just pacesetters and LS6 manifold... and a ballpark figure of how much Ill gain if kooks 1 7/8" were used and a fast 90/90 is swapped?

Also how much heavier is a 402 than a 346?, all I can think of is, the heavier crank for a longer stroke, very slightly bigger pistons and wristpins perhaps. the sleeve being slightly larger, nothing too much I presume...


I care about this because I road race he car, as mentioned earlier...

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

this is totally the route I dont want to go..

Im gonna be spending money, but keeping my 346(why would i keep a stock ci engine, if I was spending that much money) So will be making less power as well...

Now considering the torquer 3 as a large cam and the 224/224 as a mild driveable cam.

Id rather just do the 402 and a mild cam for the 402, vs building a 346 with bettee heads..

Also my Torquer cam only peaked at 6300 rpms

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

well at the moment, I was infromed my MAF wasnt working. and I just wanted to have the tuning finished and drive my car already, so I gave an ok to do the speed density tune...
But it doesnt matter now does it, since the car doesnt run anymore...

but for next time Im getting a MAF tune

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

On second thought.... Should I just buy the damn whole engine already? a 418 with heads and a mild cam.. I mean, All I was doing is saving the heads, but I was gonna need a new cam anyways and probably a new intake manifold...

This isnt certain, but Im just considering this, I dont wanna spend a lot of money, but right now seems like I might as well just put everything in at once and then maybe I can just sell my old stuff... and make the difference back... ?

WKMCD

iTrader: (2)

You keep talking about doing this on the cheap. There is no such thing. Do you have any idea how much it really costs by the time you're done. What's your budget?

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

I already explained why...

I have PRC stage 2.5 5.3 heads + Tv3 cam, 7.4" hardened pushrods, TY rockerarms 1.7 ratio, caddy lifters, ported LS6 oilpump and double roller timing chain that has 150 total miles on it Only.. and a LS1 with over 90,000 miles on it that needs to be taken apart fully..

Since my 5.3 heads would work with the 402, I said hey maybe Id rather just go with a 402 instead of a 346 rebuild and get a new cam... That way I can reuse almost everything in my valvetrain except the camshaft...

My budget is to do this as cheap as possible, because I wan to drive my car again, bottom line. I miss it.. and I wanna do this ASAP, so I dunno about you telling me its not gonna be cheap... I understand that, but Im trying to do it with the cheapest possible route, but reliable and driveable. This is my goal, the 520whp is secondary... But I dont wanna settle for less than 500whp, even though it isnt my primary goal...

reason Im saying is 500whp, is because apparently a 520whp isnt possible cheap or driveable by my standards.. so would 500whp be?

based on the calculations I did earlier in the thread. 511whp should be more driveable and obtainable...

I want to spend under $4500 - $5000, if I can reuse my heads....

so $5000 including a new cam and 402 assembled block, shipped....

Recently I considered the $9500, for a brand new fully assembled engine including the intake manifold , new heads, cam, everything... and maybe I can sell my old stuff (heads, cam, rockers, pushrods, lifters etc and make a few thousand back)

Im assuming the brand new engine comes with all of those... So if I went the $9500 way I was thinking L92 stroker.. But this is still a small chance. because I can hardly afford the 402 option as of now...

WKMCD

iTrader: (2)

Put $10-12k in your pocket before you start thinking 403 that will aproach 500RWHP and have the drivability you want. Don't forget about things like a new clutch to hold the HP/TQ, 1 7/8 LT's, injectors, etc, etc, etc.

To be honest, after reading all of your posts, you are not a very good listener. Some knowledgable people have tried to give you advice and you immediately followup with your own uniformed ideas on how to build an engine.

I give up..

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

You should take your own advice, sir, and listen too... I dont know what you are saying, but I responded to your comment just fine, I think...

I have listened and responded having listened. Plus, again as mentioned based on Hp/liter being at about 76 , based on my LS1 numbers I can achieve 500whp. This being driveable with the higher compression ratio and running a cam milder than the tv3, but for the 402.... 520 ia another story....

Im not just some guy that doesnt know anything that wants to build an engine. I have built 3 engines, 2 sbcs and 1 toyota 4cyl 2000cc... built my own T-56 and a TH400, and did the head/cam on my camaro.

Dont forget Im responding to many different people at once, vs all of them responding to mine, so its not the same...

Also, what do you expect, I am getting frustrated. For example if I am asking 10 questions Im gtting only 5 or 6 responded to. So Im still unsure on what route to go, because not everything has been answered.

I dont think 10,000-12,000 is the cost fror a 402 to make 500whp... Im sure I can build one for under 8,000....because if that was the case, like I mentioned Id rather go with a L92, that waill easily make those numbers + a bit more, and be more driveable. and the L92 being a brand new assembled engine with heads, intake manifold , injectors and all..


So no one told me yet, a mild cam and a ballpark figure for a 402 with those heads, about what numbers am I going to reach? I understand, yall are saying I wont reach 500... So if not that, then what numbers am I looking at??

and I dont remember who said it, but th driveability issue coul dhave been a number of things, an dnot really the size of cam I was running, so potentially that could have been fixed and I could have ran a mild - big cam (nothing too big) with the 402 and still have drivability, due to higher CR, larger CI and stroke, better tuned at low RPMs, better mathcing ports to he intake manifold runner length, velocity, etc... So a cam like that isnt out of the question if drivabilty was improved.


I am aware of the headers and clutch..

is re using my pacesetter(at least for a while) unacceptable with such a big cid over 400?

Edit:
I edited this like 4 times, so sorry if somethings are repeated.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, but it sounds to me like you're looking at it all wrong. "As cheap as possible" and your goals are mutually exclusive...

5.3 heads on a 402
Pacesetters on a 402
402, Headers, Clutch, Heads, Cam, 90/90, Tune + misc will your budget

My best guess for a 402 with Pacesetters, 5.3 heads, LS6 manifold, mild cam and a tune is 470-485rwhp.

To put things another way you can wish in one hand and in the other all you want.

Let us know which one fills up first..

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

ok so thanks for the direct answer, finally...

So If I wanna go the cheaper route for now, I should just get a rotating assembly for the LS1 and call it a day? since I wanna keep my CLutch and pacesetters for now..

then maybe save up and swap a L92 in the future, with some kooks and better clutch.. fast 90/90 etc...

This isnt the route I wanted to go, but due to money issues, I think its what I may be forced to do.

SO lets talk a L92 for the future then... driveable, kooks, good heads(but from a package deal from TSP) and fast 90/90 is that ever so talked about 520whp a reality????

pkincy

iTrader: (1)

Don't give up yet. A 402 will be a lot more motor than a 346 even if it ends up with exactly the same peak HP, since you will have a lot more tq on tap for your driveability concerns.

The 5.3s will work fine. Not for 520 hp but 470-480 peak HP with a flat torque curve is going to be both faster and a heck of a lot better driver than a 430 peak HP 346.

Go for it. You can put on better heads and a FAST 90/90 later.

Perry

TA455

470 rwhp NA + 50 shot of nitrous = 520 rwhp

Ding, ding...problem solved.

gold98Z28

iTrader: (7)

hey this isnt a honda +150 shoteven better

turbo'd stang

Jesus, its not hard. Did anyone even read my above post?

HKE 408
ET 5.3 heads
HKE 244/248 cam
Pacesetters
LS6 intake

This combo, in two cars made 500rwhp. I could see a FAST 90/90 getting you pretty close to 520. Call HKE and he can get it all going...period. It's not rocket science