head selection dilema
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From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
head selection dilema i'm going to be building a motor very soon and can't decide on heads. the motor will probably be WELL over 400cubic inches, looking for ~600rwhp NA. the car will be street/strip mostly. not a DD, not a race car, just a toy.
i was pretty sold on ETP heads. i like the 11* LS7's, but i don't like the price too much. TEA TFS 245's are appealing because their exhaust port seems to outflow anything else i've seen, but ETP's intake port outflows the TFS's by quite a bit. PRC LS7's caught my eye, but they're "just" a stock casting. By the time i get the heads set up the way i want, they'll all be relatively close in price. i'll be running a pretty wild hydraulic cam with agressive lobes that will require beefy springs and titanium valves on the intake side and either sodium-filled or hollowstem on the exhaust side.
anybody got any suggestions? i've PM'd/emailed/called a lot of sponsors and other vendors. responses are slow IF at all. my last hope for any real ideas, suggestions, pricing, etc will be from people that have been in my shoes before, i.e.: you guys.
any help would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
i was pretty sold on ETP heads. i like the 11* LS7's, but i don't like the price too much. TEA TFS 245's are appealing because their exhaust port seems to outflow anything else i've seen, but ETP's intake port outflows the TFS's by quite a bit. PRC LS7's caught my eye, but they're "just" a stock casting. By the time i get the heads set up the way i want, they'll all be relatively close in price. i'll be running a pretty wild hydraulic cam with agressive lobes that will require beefy springs and titanium valves on the intake side and either sodium-filled or hollowstem on the exhaust side.
anybody got any suggestions? i've PM'd/emailed/called a lot of sponsors and other vendors. responses are slow IF at all. my last hope for any real ideas, suggestions, pricing, etc will be from people that have been in my shoes before, i.e.: you guys.
any help would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
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If everything else is done right, a set of ported L92's will get you there. Porters are getting 360-370cfm's @ .650, thats plenty. You're talking around $1,500 complete ready to install.
Last edited by needadvice; Mar 28, 2008 at 11:14 PM.
^ I've yet to see L92 heads put down 600+rwhp numbers or really do anything that I consider impressive. My suggestion would be some All Pro LSW heads from Richard at West Coast Cylinder Heads. Here's their site: http://www.westcoastcylinderheads.com/index.html . Give them a call and talk to Richard or shoot him a PM on here. He's good about answering them quickly and knows his stuff. Calling him would be the best option as he can explain everything in detail to you right away and answer any question you may possibly come up with.
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^ I've yet to see L92 heads put down 600+rwhp numbers or really do anything that I consider impressive. My suggestion would be some All Pro LSW heads from Richard at West Coast Cylinder Heads. Here's their site: http://www.westcoastcylinderheads.com/index.html . Give them a call and talk to Richard or shoot him a PM on here. He's good about answering them quickly and knows his stuff. Calling him would be the best option as he can explain everything in detail to you right away and answer any question you may possibly come up with.
He said the engine will be WELL OVER 400ci with an aggressive cam. A sheet metal intake, 105mm TB, ported L92's, 11.5:1 cr and that aggressive cam......I think 600 would is doable.
^ Not really. Look at all the people that made 600+rwhp with LS6 castings back in the day. Plenty of people have made over 600rwhp with a fast 90 or ported LS7 intake. The carb intakes are also nice pieces when slightly ported and that's what I'll be using on my Formula. The 105mm is pretty much overkill on anything other than a ***** out race engine. Call accufab and talk to them about it. They have a formula that reflects air intake consumption and produces what you'll need to feed it.
The way people are making these numbers is they are taking their time to set everything up right. It's all in the combo. It's not taking the best parts out there and throwing them together. You have to know what you are doing to make it all work. That's why I suggested calling WCCH. They're one of the few sponsors I've actually gotten to reply to my requests and they know what they are doing.
The way people are making these numbers is they are taking their time to set everything up right. It's all in the combo. It's not taking the best parts out there and throwing them together. You have to know what you are doing to make it all work. That's why I suggested calling WCCH. They're one of the few sponsors I've actually gotten to reply to my requests and they know what they are doing.
^ Not really. Look at all the people that made 600+rwhp with LS6 castings back in the day. Plenty of people have made over 600rwhp with a fast 90 or ported LS7 intake. The carb intakes are also nice pieces when slightly ported and that's what I'll be using on my Formula. The 105mm is pretty much overkill on anything other than a ***** out race engine. Call accufab and talk to them about it. They have a formula that reflects air intake consumption and produces what you'll need to feed it.
The way people are making these numbers is they are taking their time to set everything up right. It's all in the combo. It's not taking the best parts out there and throwing them together. You have to know what you are doing to make it all work. That's why I suggested calling WCCH. They're one of the few sponsors I've actually gotten to reply to my requests and they know what they are doing.
The way people are making these numbers is they are taking their time to set everything up right. It's all in the combo. It's not taking the best parts out there and throwing them together. You have to know what you are doing to make it all work. That's why I suggested calling WCCH. They're one of the few sponsors I've actually gotten to reply to my requests and they know what they are doing.
WCCH also makes some of the best CNC L92 heads available, I'm sure they could help you out there as well on some info.
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The LS7 intake restricts the LS7 heads. I think I read somewhere the LS7 intake flows around 350cfm, so it would also restrict L92 heads. If you could actually feed a ~400cfm head on a big cube engine (like a 427ci) don't you think 650-700 RWHP (M6) cars would be popping up all over? A sheet metal can feed the ported L92 and LS7 heads.
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From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
i don't REALLY want to spend $4K+ on a set of heads, but it may come down to it. $3920 for the BARE CASTING LSW heads is pretty retarded if you ask me, but i have considered them. i had originally intended on running a LS7 intake. they aren't THAT restrictive, especially when ported. like stated above, it's in the combo. the bottom end just has to be strong, and in my case big, i think. the power is made ALL in the top end. your heads/cam determince everything. the intake will be a restriction or overkill no matter what i put on.
let me refer you here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/878263-454-lsx-prc-ls7-cnc-heads.html
i don't want to duplicate this setup by any means, but it's a place to start as far as the 600rwhp argument goes. take special notice of the stock intake, 85mm MAF, full exhaust, 90mm TB, and 11.25:1 CR. i planned on closer to 11.6:1 with 100mm lid/MAF & 90mm TB (100mm if the price was right).
600rwhp is NOT difficult to achieve, you just have to not be a dumbass and you need money. whoever has the most money, typically goes the fastest. and as far as that goes, i'm pretty well broke. i have a bare block and $3500 and bills to pay. not really any way to build a motor here, but i am going to make it happen. i've got a dirtbike about to sell and then it's on.
let me refer you here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/878263-454-lsx-prc-ls7-cnc-heads.html
i don't want to duplicate this setup by any means, but it's a place to start as far as the 600rwhp argument goes. take special notice of the stock intake, 85mm MAF, full exhaust, 90mm TB, and 11.25:1 CR. i planned on closer to 11.6:1 with 100mm lid/MAF & 90mm TB (100mm if the price was right).
600rwhp is NOT difficult to achieve, you just have to not be a dumbass and you need money. whoever has the most money, typically goes the fastest. and as far as that goes, i'm pretty well broke. i have a bare block and $3500 and bills to pay. not really any way to build a motor here, but i am going to make it happen. i've got a dirtbike about to sell and then it's on.
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, and 11.25:1 CR. i planned on closer to 11.6:1 with 100mm lid/MAF & 90mm TB (100mm if the price was right).
600rwhp is NOT difficult to achieve
How much have you been quoted on ported LS7 heads complete ready to install?
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From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
No, try a few searches. Most of them aren't even over 12:1 and run decent cams. Look up the old Futral engines, or the ones newer ones Vengeance, and texas speed does. There's a 408 in the dyno section right now that made 601rwhp with hand ported LS6 castings, a tiny solid roller, and fast intake.
Any intake we have available restricts these heads even a sheet metal. The thing is people don't like the associated costs, loss of low end torque, and fitment of sheet metal intakes.
You mistyped that: WCCH-All Pro Heads
An LS7 head on steroids that is a direct bolt on to all 4.125" bore Gen 3 and Gen 4 blocks. Price per pair bare machine finished castings $3290.00
The LS7 intake restricts the LS7 heads. I think I read somewhere the LS7 intake flows around 350cfm, so it would also restrict L92 heads. If you could actually feed a ~400cfm head on a big cube engine (like a 427ci) don't you think 650-700 RWHP (M6) cars would be popping up all over? A sheet metal can feed the ported L92 and LS7 heads.
An LS7 head on steroids that is a direct bolt on to all 4.125" bore Gen 3 and Gen 4 blocks. Price per pair bare machine finished castings $3290.00
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From: Sarasota/Bradenton FL
I have been debating what manifold to use on my 454 and still am. IMO sheetmetal is the way to go for all out performance exspecially considering a fast90/90 would start to die off around 6400rpms and so on. It it wasnt for the fitment (height) issues of the sheetmetal intake I would be all over it just really don't want to buy an aftermarket hood right now.
To clear stock hoods, do o you think there would be alot of negatives(performance wise) to having a shorter sheetmetal intake built??
To clear stock hoods, do o you think there would be alot of negatives(performance wise) to having a shorter sheetmetal intake built??
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From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
I have been debating what manifold to use on my 454 and still am. IMO sheetmetal is the way to go for all out performance exspecially considering a fast90/90 would start to die off around 6400rpms and so on. It it wasnt for the fitment (height) issues of the sheetmetal intake I would be all over it just really don't want to buy an aftermarket hood right now.
To clear stock hoods, do o you think there would be alot of negatives(performance wise) to having a shorter sheetmetal intake built??
To clear stock hoods, do o you think there would be alot of negatives(performance wise) to having a shorter sheetmetal intake built??
if all out performance is what you want, there ARE sheetmetal intakes that don't require hoods out there. a shorter runner would yeild less torque i believe. someone else should step in here and take that one...but i'm pretty sure the longer the runner, the better.
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I have been debating what manifold to use on my 454 and still am. IMO sheetmetal is the way to go for all out performance exspecially considering a fast90/90 would start to die off around 6400rpms and so on. It it wasnt for the fitment (height) issues of the sheetmetal intake I would be all over it just really don't want to buy an aftermarket hood right now.
To clear stock hoods, do o you think there would be alot of negatives(performance wise) to having a shorter sheetmetal intake built??
To clear stock hoods, do o you think there would be alot of negatives(performance wise) to having a shorter sheetmetal intake built??
ALSO....by going sheet metal, even for a street car, the sheet metal will allow better flow then any other type out there (LS7, L76, FAST), then alolowing these awesome heads we have now to breath to their potential, then allowing us to actually use these big cubic inches we're all going for now.
Building a 454ci even with the FAST and ~400cfm heads wastes allot of those cubes because the intakes are the starting point for the "choking effect". Imagine a 454ci that could use all the ~400cfm the heads can flow. Start the top end with a better intake and work down to the cubes, then these big cube engines will start being powerhouses.
100mm TB + Sheet metal intake + LS7 ported heads + 454ci = 650 RWHP with a mid sized cam that idles good for a street car.
This is how I see it, seems simple and logical.
Last edited by needadvice; Mar 30, 2008 at 01:20 PM.
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There's a couple cars I've seen with under the factory hood sheet metal intakes. I think one was the "Spyder" on a 427ci and the other I think was the Hogan. Maybe they had to cut inside the hood a little bit, I don't know.
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From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
that sounds familiar. i know the ones that first come to mind are from a local forum. 9 out of 10 times, if the intake fits under a stock hood and uses all the factory connections and harware, there were compromises made somewhere, and the car would be just as well off with a ported FAST intake.
i really don't want to have to fork out the cash for a sheet metal intake. i'm a welder/fabricator by profession, so if it came down to it, i could make my own, but i don't have the time or patience right now and the price of metal is so stupid that i don't want to fool with it. i think a ported LS7 intake will suit my needs for now. 600rwhp shouldn't be out of its range, especially with the right top end/cu.in./CR combo with all the supporting mods.
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From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
Richard@WCCH got back with me today, here's what he said:
"The All Pro heads require a shaft rocker setup from Jesel or T&D. The heads setup with titanium valves and a hyd. roller dual spring setup run $4914.00 per pair. The Jesel rocker system runs $1490.00 bringing the total to $6404.00."
~$5K on assembled heads IS a bit out of my range, especially for what i'm doing. those All Pro heads ARE badass, and if i had the money, or the need for that much flow, i'd be all over them. i'm secretly waiting for a set to pop up used/new on here in the for sale section at a greatly reduced price
i don't bank on that happening, which is why i'm still talking with lots of shops. i've got a few more phone #'s to try monday. TECH Enthusiast
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that sounds familiar. i know the ones that first come to mind are from a local forum. 9 out of 10 times, if the intake fits under a stock hood and uses all the factory connections and harware, there were compromises made somewhere, and the car would be just as well off with a ported FAST intake.
i really don't want to have to fork out the cash for a sheet metal intake. i'm a welder/fabricator by profession, so if it came down to it, i could make my own, but i don't have the time or patience right now and the price of metal is so stupid that i don't want to fool with it. i think a ported LS7 intake will suit my needs for now. 600rwhp shouldn't be out of its range, especially with the right top end/cu.in./CR combo with all the supporting mods.
i really don't want to have to fork out the cash for a sheet metal intake. i'm a welder/fabricator by profession, so if it came down to it, i could make my own, but i don't have the time or patience right now and the price of metal is so stupid that i don't want to fool with it. i think a ported LS7 intake will suit my needs for now. 600rwhp shouldn't be out of its range, especially with the right top end/cu.in./CR combo with all the supporting mods.
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yep, sorry.
Richard@WCCH got back with me today, here's what he said:
"The All Pro heads require a shaft rocker setup from Jesel or T&D. The heads setup with titanium valves and a hyd. roller dual spring setup run $4914.00 per pair. The Jesel rocker system runs $1490.00 bringing the total to $6404.00."
~$5K on assembled heads IS a bit out of my range, especially for what i'm doing. those All Pro heads ARE badass, and if i had the money, or the need for that much flow, i'd be all over them. i'm secretly waiting for a set to pop up used/new on here in the for sale section at a greatly reduced price i don't bank on that happening, which is why i'm still talking with lots of shops. i've got a few more phone #'s to try monday.
Richard@WCCH got back with me today, here's what he said:
"The All Pro heads require a shaft rocker setup from Jesel or T&D. The heads setup with titanium valves and a hyd. roller dual spring setup run $4914.00 per pair. The Jesel rocker system runs $1490.00 bringing the total to $6404.00."
~$5K on assembled heads IS a bit out of my range, especially for what i'm doing. those All Pro heads ARE badass, and if i had the money, or the need for that much flow, i'd be all over them. i'm secretly waiting for a set to pop up used/new on here in the for sale section at a greatly reduced price
i don't bank on that happening, which is why i'm still talking with lots of shops. i've got a few more phone #'s to try monday.Even if you got them, which I think $6400 is quite the rip-off as well, if you used a ported LS7 intake there will be allot of unusable cfm's in those heads.
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From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
yeah...i don't think i'm going with the all-pros...i didn't get any flow numbers other than what's on WCCH's website. i know they flow A LOT though, over 400cfm.
i was considering L92's when i first broke my current motor, but i got a bigger tax return than expected, so i figured i'd go LS7. i hate to have all that extra CFM left on the table, but just like food on a table, if you get hungry, it's there waiting to be used, know what i mean? if i got a set of L92's and an intake that flow-matched or outflowed them and then wanted to go bigger, i'd be getting an entire new top-end including the cam i would imagine. plus i like the 11* valve angle of the LS7's too.
the car is going to be mostly street oriented, but if/when this new motor breaks, it may be a little more track-oriented and i'll i'd have to do is hook up a sheet metal intake and plug in a 200-shot or swap out pistons and stick a big turbo on it.
another factor i've LIGHTLY considered is the potential for a LS7-compatible FAST intake. i don't know if one is in the making, but if it were, i would imagine it would suit my needs quite well, and since i don't know when this motor will come to fruition, i may have a few extra intake options when the time comes.
i was considering L92's when i first broke my current motor, but i got a bigger tax return than expected, so i figured i'd go LS7. i hate to have all that extra CFM left on the table, but just like food on a table, if you get hungry, it's there waiting to be used, know what i mean? if i got a set of L92's and an intake that flow-matched or outflowed them and then wanted to go bigger, i'd be getting an entire new top-end including the cam i would imagine. plus i like the 11* valve angle of the LS7's too.
the car is going to be mostly street oriented, but if/when this new motor breaks, it may be a little more track-oriented and i'll i'd have to do is hook up a sheet metal intake and plug in a 200-shot or swap out pistons and stick a big turbo on it.
another factor i've LIGHTLY considered is the potential for a LS7-compatible FAST intake. i don't know if one is in the making, but if it were, i would imagine it would suit my needs quite well, and since i don't know when this motor will come to fruition, i may have a few extra intake options when the time comes.
