FAST 92 question
This post CLEARLY shows (with all due respect) you have ZERO clue what your talking about.
1) PLEASE show me a 454cid street car with your setup that running the numbers you claim.. If you do happen to find these graphs, ask the owner of the car how it drives. Cause I know first hand about a "Super 454cid" on this board that made serious rwhp. Unfortunately the owner, tuner, and engine builder couldnt keep the car from surging and bucking. So bad that they swapped cams, yet NEVER posted their NEW numbers..
2) I had 5 witnesses standing around when we dyno'd my sheetmetal "After" Doug Stalter (Who freelances for HPT) tuned my car. I was sooooo fuking embarassed, I left the shop without even taking the dyno sheet. It was PATHETIC. So pathetic, that I pulled my 2,600 dollar intake and sold it the NEXT day.. So dont tell me about **** you have no experience with..
Trust me, I woldnt lie about a 2600 dollar brain fart.. I WISH I would have listened to all of the so called "talk" about sheetmetal intakes on the street. I wouldnt have wasted my cash..
1) PLEASE show me a 454cid street car with your setup that running the numbers you claim.. If you do happen to find these graphs, ask the owner of the car how it drives. Cause I know first hand about a "Super 454cid" on this board that made serious rwhp. Unfortunately the owner, tuner, and engine builder couldnt keep the car from surging and bucking. So bad that they swapped cams, yet NEVER posted their NEW numbers..
2) I had 5 witnesses standing around when we dyno'd my sheetmetal "After" Doug Stalter (Who freelances for HPT) tuned my car. I was sooooo fuking embarassed, I left the shop without even taking the dyno sheet. It was PATHETIC. So pathetic, that I pulled my 2,600 dollar intake and sold it the NEXT day.. So dont tell me about **** you have no experience with..
Trust me, I woldnt lie about a 2600 dollar brain fart.. I WISH I would have listened to all of the so called "talk" about sheetmetal intakes on the street. I wouldnt have wasted my cash..
In my research and talking with builders that build big cube engines, its all about how much money you want to spend of course, but......
454ci + sheet metal intake or carb style intake + ported LS7 heads + 105mm TB + no MAF (SD tune) + medium aggressive cam in the low 240's = 650-675 RWHP through an A4, 700 RWHP through an M6.
And don't let the talk about "losing low end torque" by using a sheet metal intake suck you in, its simply not going to be noticable. You'll still be putting down 600+ RWTQ in the mid range rpm's, which is all anyone needs for a street car.
There's a few 427ci F-Body's running around here that some guy in Miami builds for people in his garage at his house, he always uses that cheezy "LS Spyder" sheet metal intake (which still blows away any of the plastic intakes) with 90mm TB's and ported LS6 intakes, and SD tunes them all himself....they're all around 560-580 RWHP, for 4-5 years now. Pump gas, 11.3:1 cr. Its all about the better intake feeding pretty decent heads. Imagine if you had a good sheet metal intake feeding 400 cfm LS7 heads through a big 105mm TB and no MAF??????
Ported LS7's flow about 70 cfm more than ported LS6's, which right there is good for about 105 more HP.(70 x 1.5 = 105 hp)
Thats how I see it, but its all about cash. But still 454ci is alot of cubes, you're in big block cube territory, a set of heads that flow 450cfm would even be better because I think even 400 cfm heads still choke the engine some. 400 cfm heads would be the weak link for a 454ci. I think some big block heads flow over 500cfm, so you can see where they are. Cubes are cubes, doesn't matter which block is being used, you still have to feed the cubes. The heads don't know that they are on top of a small block or a big block, their job is the same.
454ci + sheet metal intake or carb style intake + ported LS7 heads + 105mm TB + no MAF (SD tune) + medium aggressive cam in the low 240's = 650-675 RWHP through an A4, 700 RWHP through an M6.
And don't let the talk about "losing low end torque" by using a sheet metal intake suck you in, its simply not going to be noticable. You'll still be putting down 600+ RWTQ in the mid range rpm's, which is all anyone needs for a street car.
There's a few 427ci F-Body's running around here that some guy in Miami builds for people in his garage at his house, he always uses that cheezy "LS Spyder" sheet metal intake (which still blows away any of the plastic intakes) with 90mm TB's and ported LS6 intakes, and SD tunes them all himself....they're all around 560-580 RWHP, for 4-5 years now. Pump gas, 11.3:1 cr. Its all about the better intake feeding pretty decent heads. Imagine if you had a good sheet metal intake feeding 400 cfm LS7 heads through a big 105mm TB and no MAF??????
Ported LS7's flow about 70 cfm more than ported LS6's, which right there is good for about 105 more HP.(70 x 1.5 = 105 hp)Thats how I see it, but its all about cash. But still 454ci is alot of cubes, you're in big block cube territory, a set of heads that flow 450cfm would even be better because I think even 400 cfm heads still choke the engine some. 400 cfm heads would be the weak link for a 454ci. I think some big block heads flow over 500cfm, so you can see where they are. Cubes are cubes, doesn't matter which block is being used, you still have to feed the cubes. The heads don't know that they are on top of a small block or a big block, their job is the same.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
From: silver Spring MD
Let me explain something to you.
ANYONE who knows me, knows I have tried EVERY possible combination in my personal vehicle imaginabe. My "Personal" C5 has seen a stock H/C, Forged 347, Forged 403, Forged 404, forged 408, and finally my 454LSX. Not to mention a P1SC, D1SC, F1R, Kenne Bell 2.6, KB 2.8H, FAST 90 direct port, Sheetmetal direct port, and a FAST 92 2 stage. This has ALL been done in the last 2 1/2 years. Ask LME, They build my motors..
If its one thing I do, is test..
I'm willing to bet the title of my car that with LS7 heads and a 100mm TB, we wont hit anywhere near 700rwhp..
, nor will we gain very much more average HP/TQ.
ANYONE who knows me, knows I have tried EVERY possible combination in my personal vehicle imaginabe. My "Personal" C5 has seen a stock H/C, Forged 347, Forged 403, Forged 404, forged 408, and finally my 454LSX. Not to mention a P1SC, D1SC, F1R, Kenne Bell 2.6, KB 2.8H, FAST 90 direct port, Sheetmetal direct port, and a FAST 92 2 stage. This has ALL been done in the last 2 1/2 years. Ask LME, They build my motors..
If its one thing I do, is test..
I'm willing to bet the title of my car that with LS7 heads and a 100mm TB, we wont hit anywhere near 700rwhp..
, nor will we gain very much more average HP/TQ.You have hit the nail right on the head - with all the testing you have done, that is the way to prove anything. I like the combinations of testing you have done and you have real facts to back them up. I have the 90/90 with 85 MAF and I could not see a difference - it took a while to tune it. For once somebody tested things without changing the base (Engine). Good Job!
thanks
Bill
Originally Posted by needsadvice
The 245's flow less than ported LS7 heads, especially on the exhaust port. I don't think 454ci cubes can be fed by 245's to the max potential of 454ci's, no way.
Originally Posted by Jermzz
First off, the ETP Ls7 4.1 bore heads flow 226 cfm at .600 and the TFS flow 276 @ .600 Etp flows with the pipes off, but it's still not worth 50cfm, and even if it was, it doesnt make the TFS head "flow less."
This post CLEARLY shows (with all due respect) you have ZERO clue what your talking about.
1) PLEASE show me a 454cid street car with your setup that running the numbers you claim.. If you do happen to find these graphs, ask the owner of the car how it drives. Cause I know first hand about a "Super 454cid" on this board that made serious rwhp. Unfortunately the owner, tuner, and engine builder couldnt keep the car from surging and bucking. So bad that they swapped cams, yet NEVER posted their NEW numbers..
2) I had 5 witnesses standing around when we dyno'd my sheetmetal "After" Doug Stalter (Who freelances for HPT) tuned my car. I was sooooo fuking embarassed, I left the shop without even taking the dyno sheet. It was PATHETIC. So pathetic, that I pulled my 2,600 dollar intake and sold it the NEXT day.. So dont tell me about **** you have no experience with..
Trust me, I woldnt lie about a 2600 dollar brain fart.. I WISH I would have listened to all of the so called "talk" about sheetmetal intakes on the street. I wouldnt have wasted my cash..
1) PLEASE show me a 454cid street car with your setup that running the numbers you claim.. If you do happen to find these graphs, ask the owner of the car how it drives. Cause I know first hand about a "Super 454cid" on this board that made serious rwhp. Unfortunately the owner, tuner, and engine builder couldnt keep the car from surging and bucking. So bad that they swapped cams, yet NEVER posted their NEW numbers..
2) I had 5 witnesses standing around when we dyno'd my sheetmetal "After" Doug Stalter (Who freelances for HPT) tuned my car. I was sooooo fuking embarassed, I left the shop without even taking the dyno sheet. It was PATHETIC. So pathetic, that I pulled my 2,600 dollar intake and sold it the NEXT day.. So dont tell me about **** you have no experience with..
Trust me, I woldnt lie about a 2600 dollar brain fart.. I WISH I would have listened to all of the so called "talk" about sheetmetal intakes on the street. I wouldnt have wasted my cash..
It all depends on your expectations..
My low end suffered SEVERLY.. I'm talking about so bad, I was hanging my head in shame.. I personally would NEVR do it again.
Do you know Robert at Advanced? Ask him, he drove in my car. If we weren't above 4 grand, the car was flat as hell.. At 4 grand the car woke up and pulled hard.
I'll share something EXTREMELY embarassing.. My lightly ported (without port matching) FAST 90 and STOCK 90mm ls2 TB made 54xrwtq.
My LME/Beck sheetmetal intake (Portmatched) and ported LS2 TB made 467rwtq. (that was the highest I could get it)
Granted, it was MUCH hotter outside, and the conditions were not optimal. But they were both on Dynojet dyno's with SAE corrections, and smoothing at 5.
Both setups were tuned to their optimal potential.
On a positive note.. With my sheetmetal, my hp NEVER fell off. It climbed all the way to the limiter at 7200. I made more hp with the sheetmetal.
Mainly street/some strip = HORRIBLE choice.
Mainly strip/ some street = Good choice.
My low end suffered SEVERLY.. I'm talking about so bad, I was hanging my head in shame.. I personally would NEVR do it again.
Do you know Robert at Advanced? Ask him, he drove in my car. If we weren't above 4 grand, the car was flat as hell.. At 4 grand the car woke up and pulled hard.
I'll share something EXTREMELY embarassing.. My lightly ported (without port matching) FAST 90 and STOCK 90mm ls2 TB made 54xrwtq.
My LME/Beck sheetmetal intake (Portmatched) and ported LS2 TB made 467rwtq. (that was the highest I could get it)
Granted, it was MUCH hotter outside, and the conditions were not optimal. But they were both on Dynojet dyno's with SAE corrections, and smoothing at 5.
Both setups were tuned to their optimal potential.
On a positive note.. With my sheetmetal, my hp NEVER fell off. It climbed all the way to the limiter at 7200. I made more hp with the sheetmetal.
Mainly street/some strip = HORRIBLE choice.
Mainly strip/ some street = Good choice.
can you post the graphs, jeff?
How much Hp did you make with the fast as opposed to the sheet metal?
you obviously lost a good amount of torque, but was the hp you gained at the top just as much? How about the curve?
My car is more.. streetstrip / strip, if you know what I mean
How much Hp did you make with the fast as opposed to the sheet metal?
you obviously lost a good amount of torque, but was the hp you gained at the top just as much? How about the curve?
My car is more.. streetstrip / strip, if you know what I mean
On The Tree
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Let me explain something to you.
ANYONE who knows me, knows I have tried EVERY possible combination in my personal vehicle imaginabe. My "Personal" C5 has seen a stock H/C, Forged 347, Forged 403, Forged 404, forged 408, and finally my 454LSX. Not to mention a P1SC, D1SC, F1R, Kenne Bell 2.6, KB 2.8H, FAST 90 direct port, Sheetmetal direct port, and a FAST 92 2 stage. This has ALL been done in the last 2 1/2 years. Ask LME, They build my motors..
If its one thing I do, is test..
It is not difficult to determine wether or not your heads are flowing adequately. JUST because people throw around LS7 flow numbers doesnt mean ****. I can tell you for a FACT, that my heads are not to small for my setup. I can also tell you that a 26x cam with almost .650 lift is no slouch.
You are making statement on a point that has already been done, and proved otherwise. I know, cause it sitting in my garage..
Currently, I've swapped back to a slightly smaller cam, and a TPE ported FAST 92. Why?? Cause i lost 50+rwtq with the sheetmetal...
BUT....The motor got pulled this weekend for some additional parts testing. So if your willing to put your money where your mouth is, I'll put whatever you want on it. The motor will be at LME next week.
I'm willing to bet the title of my car that with LS7 heads and a 100mm TB, we wont hit anywhere near 700rwhp.., nor will we gain very much more average HP/TQ.
ANYONE who knows me, knows I have tried EVERY possible combination in my personal vehicle imaginabe. My "Personal" C5 has seen a stock H/C, Forged 347, Forged 403, Forged 404, forged 408, and finally my 454LSX. Not to mention a P1SC, D1SC, F1R, Kenne Bell 2.6, KB 2.8H, FAST 90 direct port, Sheetmetal direct port, and a FAST 92 2 stage. This has ALL been done in the last 2 1/2 years. Ask LME, They build my motors..
If its one thing I do, is test..
It is not difficult to determine wether or not your heads are flowing adequately. JUST because people throw around LS7 flow numbers doesnt mean ****. I can tell you for a FACT, that my heads are not to small for my setup. I can also tell you that a 26x cam with almost .650 lift is no slouch.
You are making statement on a point that has already been done, and proved otherwise. I know, cause it sitting in my garage..
Currently, I've swapped back to a slightly smaller cam, and a TPE ported FAST 92. Why?? Cause i lost 50+rwtq with the sheetmetal...
BUT....The motor got pulled this weekend for some additional parts testing. So if your willing to put your money where your mouth is, I'll put whatever you want on it. The motor will be at LME next week.
I'm willing to bet the title of my car that with LS7 heads and a 100mm TB, we wont hit anywhere near 700rwhp..
, nor will we gain very much more average HP/TQ.LS1 Tech Stories
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Needsadvice got OWNED in this thread LOL. The whole big MAF thing is a crock of ****. I have a buddy w/ a car that I tune on that is running consistant 8.8x-8.9x in the quarter mile with a race weight of about 3400 lbs running an 85mm MAF.
Also, a 90mm throttle body flows close to 2000cfm. That's enough to support over 1200 hp so unless you are over that, you are wasting money. The other problem comes in the form of controlling airflow under part throttle with those huge TBs. I believe what I see not what I hear.
BIG PROPS TO JEFF@TPE for putting aside his pride and sharing his costly mistakes so us poorer people dont have to learn by falling on our faces!
Also, a 90mm throttle body flows close to 2000cfm. That's enough to support over 1200 hp so unless you are over that, you are wasting money. The other problem comes in the form of controlling airflow under part throttle with those huge TBs. I believe what I see not what I hear.
BIG PROPS TO JEFF@TPE for putting aside his pride and sharing his costly mistakes so us poorer people dont have to learn by falling on our faces!
What kind of power is that car putting down? Have you ever datalogged that car at WOT? I would be curious to see what the MAF is reading. My car routinely sees upper 11K in the MAF at WOT, so I would have to believe that car's MAF is maxed out.
It's a 99 and it's bottle fed so I havent seen the maf peg yet. Runs 10.0-10.1's on motor.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,608
Likes: 0
From: Webb City, MO...out in the garage
i went ahead and picked up a TSP 100mm MAF from TTP, since it was "only" $200, but i really don't think it will be necessary. it's going on MY LSX454 with TFS 245's FWIW. i think that in some NA instances, a 85mm MAF may be more beneficial. it acts like a choke right before the TB. although it may have adverse effects on CFM, it should increase velocity, which will help the beast feed, if i'm not mistaken.
i was in a pretty big dilema regarding head selection when i started my build. it was between LS7's, TFS245's, or ETP's. ETP went down first, since i couldn't justify the cost due to "only" gaining a thicker deck and few other misc things i would never take advantage of (since it IS a street car).
the LS7's provide great flow, but like stated above, it could never be used in my application. i'm not dropping the coin on a sheetmetal intake and whatnot, and no plastic intake (even ported) can keep up with a 400cfm head. plus, there are losses down low when compared to a cathedral port head, IMHO they provide flow, not so much velocity, so that was the final nail in the coffin for LS7 heads. my car is for the street with some track duty, just fun, no competition.
The TFS245's shined because they really aren't that expensive ($2450 shipped for me) when compared to other heads. LS7's ARE just factory castings, and aftermarket LS7's get costly, FAST. the TFS castings are gorgeous. the TFS's provide superior flow from .200"-.500" and flow up top is awsome as well.
but regarding the OP's concern, a 85mm MAF will be more than sufficient. a ported out / descreened stock one will probably even get you by without leaving much on the table.
i was in a pretty big dilema regarding head selection when i started my build. it was between LS7's, TFS245's, or ETP's. ETP went down first, since i couldn't justify the cost due to "only" gaining a thicker deck and few other misc things i would never take advantage of (since it IS a street car).
the LS7's provide great flow, but like stated above, it could never be used in my application. i'm not dropping the coin on a sheetmetal intake and whatnot, and no plastic intake (even ported) can keep up with a 400cfm head. plus, there are losses down low when compared to a cathedral port head, IMHO they provide flow, not so much velocity, so that was the final nail in the coffin for LS7 heads. my car is for the street with some track duty, just fun, no competition.
The TFS245's shined because they really aren't that expensive ($2450 shipped for me) when compared to other heads. LS7's ARE just factory castings, and aftermarket LS7's get costly, FAST. the TFS castings are gorgeous. the TFS's provide superior flow from .200"-.500" and flow up top is awsome as well.
but regarding the OP's concern, a 85mm MAF will be more than sufficient. a ported out / descreened stock one will probably even get you by without leaving much on the table.
