New LT1 for 2014 6.2l alum block
12-16-2012, 09:21 AM
#481
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Depending on possible questions yes...more information is available. However one must ask
Bigg Gunz
12-16-2012, 12:46 PM
#482
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Second question: is this it, or can we look forward to a bigger engine to better compete with the diesel in pulling?
Third question: are these new engines going to be very detuned for the first few years and output gradually raised over the next few years like usual?
12-16-2012, 01:01 PM
#483
I've been reading the thread and specifically the pieces concerning the LY6/LS3 motors. Also, I can agree that the ex durations of these cams are getting to be overkill and counterproductive.
I think if we just take the fact that these heads are designed around the SB2.2/RO7 heads, why don't we use the same exhaust systems and similar cams?
A SB2.2 cam runs a differential of 6 degrees between the two profiles. So, running a tighter LSA and less differential in/ex duration coupled with VVT, will put the power in a more controllable range and let the heads do the work...since they support over 600hp in OEM form. I realize lift to is important, but start with some baseline and tweak lift and LSA.
Also, the exhuast systems available on ebay for nascar engines are all the same...super high quality SS, long tubes, that reduce, reduce, reduce and then all collect and go into a slight megaphone...absolute best scavenging you can do, along with heat control.
I don't have much info on the K&N series LS motors, but I bet they are doing a lot of this...
I think if we just take the fact that these heads are designed around the SB2.2/RO7 heads, why don't we use the same exhaust systems and similar cams?
A SB2.2 cam runs a differential of 6 degrees between the two profiles. So, running a tighter LSA and less differential in/ex duration coupled with VVT, will put the power in a more controllable range and let the heads do the work...since they support over 600hp in OEM form. I realize lift to is important, but start with some baseline and tweak lift and LSA.
Also, the exhuast systems available on ebay for nascar engines are all the same...super high quality SS, long tubes, that reduce, reduce, reduce and then all collect and go into a slight megaphone...absolute best scavenging you can do, along with heat control.
I don't have much info on the K&N series LS motors, but I bet they are doing a lot of this...
12-16-2012, 02:58 PM
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I have a few questions that are very pertinent for crate users:
*Could you give us a clue on the external dimensions of the LT1 either absolute or in reference to the LS3? Does the VVT add some length to the block? What about the DI and engine block height?
*is the 5.3L version slimmer externally?
*The advertised weight is 465lbs. Is that with clutch/flywheel? What other accessories are included?
*Does the receiving car have to have electric power steering?
*How flexible is the ECU in terms of receiving all fresh piping?
*Is the 7 speed transmission straight bolt on using previous 6 speed parts, most swaps won't have a transaxle. Is the housing as slim as the 6 speed?
*Lastly, in terms of integration. What are some benefits to sticking to the C7 instead of going with a different chassis? Launch control, etc...
One point of clarification as well, does LT1 version 2 = "big brother" ?
*Could you give us a clue on the external dimensions of the LT1 either absolute or in reference to the LS3? Does the VVT add some length to the block? What about the DI and engine block height?
*is the 5.3L version slimmer externally?
*The advertised weight is 465lbs. Is that with clutch/flywheel? What other accessories are included?
*Does the receiving car have to have electric power steering?
*How flexible is the ECU in terms of receiving all fresh piping?
*Is the 7 speed transmission straight bolt on using previous 6 speed parts, most swaps won't have a transaxle. Is the housing as slim as the 6 speed?
*Lastly, in terms of integration. What are some benefits to sticking to the C7 instead of going with a different chassis? Launch control, etc...
One point of clarification as well, does LT1 version 2 = "big brother" ?
12-16-2012, 03:09 PM
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Alright. First question: how many years until we will see the new engines in the heavier trucks (3/4 ton and up)? 2.5 years
Second question: is this it, or can we look forward to a bigger engine to better compete with the diesel in pulling? Diesel will always reign supreme with torque for pulling and towing. We have engines coming forth that are better at towing and produce a LARGE amount of torque at Lower RPM they have a special place. However diesel has a job to do and that is torque and no gasoline engine can compete with torque of a diesel at low rpm to get heavy objects moving. Sorry gasoline liter in displacement vs Diesel displacement no question or competing DIESEL wins every time.
Third question: are these new engines going to be very detuned for the first few years and output gradually raised over the next few years like usual? All engines are detuned, not just these engines. Engineers always allow for additional expansion. You can expect additional output as time continues.
Second question: is this it, or can we look forward to a bigger engine to better compete with the diesel in pulling? Diesel will always reign supreme with torque for pulling and towing. We have engines coming forth that are better at towing and produce a LARGE amount of torque at Lower RPM they have a special place. However diesel has a job to do and that is torque and no gasoline engine can compete with torque of a diesel at low rpm to get heavy objects moving. Sorry gasoline liter in displacement vs Diesel displacement no question or competing DIESEL wins every time.
Third question: are these new engines going to be very detuned for the first few years and output gradually raised over the next few years like usual? All engines are detuned, not just these engines. Engineers always allow for additional expansion. You can expect additional output as time continues.
Bigg Gunz
12-16-2012, 03:25 PM
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I have a few questions that are very pertinent for crate users:
*Could you give us a clue on the external dimensions of the LT1 either absolute or in reference to the LS3? Does the VVT add some length to the block? What about the DI and engine block height? Anything you can put the current LS9 in, you can easily fit the 2014 LT1.
*is the 5.3L version slimmer externally? No
*The advertised weight is 465lbs. Is that with clutch/flywheel? What other accessories are included?Fully dressed with auto flywheel
*Does the receiving car have to have electric power steering? Yes, All newer cars have EPS or EEPS.
*How flexible is the ECU in terms of receiving all fresh piping? I am not familiar with the term fresh piping... can you be more specific?
*Is the 7 speed transmission straight bolt on using previous 6 speed parts, most swaps won't have a transaxle. Is the housing as slim as the 6 speed? cannot elaborate.
*Lastly, in terms of integration. What are some benefits to sticking to the C7 instead of going with a different chassis? Launch control, etc...cannot elaborate
One point of clarification as well, does LT1 version 2 = "big brother" ?cannot elaborate additionally, all those hints are within the thread.
*Could you give us a clue on the external dimensions of the LT1 either absolute or in reference to the LS3? Does the VVT add some length to the block? What about the DI and engine block height? Anything you can put the current LS9 in, you can easily fit the 2014 LT1.
*is the 5.3L version slimmer externally? No
*The advertised weight is 465lbs. Is that with clutch/flywheel? What other accessories are included?Fully dressed with auto flywheel
*Does the receiving car have to have electric power steering? Yes, All newer cars have EPS or EEPS.
*How flexible is the ECU in terms of receiving all fresh piping? I am not familiar with the term fresh piping... can you be more specific?
*Is the 7 speed transmission straight bolt on using previous 6 speed parts, most swaps won't have a transaxle. Is the housing as slim as the 6 speed? cannot elaborate.
*Lastly, in terms of integration. What are some benefits to sticking to the C7 instead of going with a different chassis? Launch control, etc...cannot elaborate
One point of clarification as well, does LT1 version 2 = "big brother" ?cannot elaborate additionally, all those hints are within the thread.
Bigg Gunz
12-16-2012, 03:33 PM
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I've been reading the thread and specifically the pieces concerning the LY6/LS3 motors. Also, I can agree that the ex durations of these cams are getting to be overkill and counterproductive.
I think if we just take the fact that these heads are designed around the SB2.2/RO7 heads, why don't we use the same exhaust systems and similar cams? The aftermarket is able to do exactly this, however in OEM performance the cost would substantial.
A SB2.2 cam runs a differential of 6 degrees between the two profiles. So, running a tighter LSA and less differential in/ex duration coupled with VVT, will put the power in a more controllable range and let the heads do the work...since they support over 600hp in OEM form. I realize lift to is important, but start with some baseline and tweak lift and LSA. Slightly more complicated than that. However the technology does exist in the aftermarket to really make the VVT scene come alive. However there are two developments lacking.
Also, the exhuast systems available on ebay for nascar engines are all the same...super high quality SS, long tubes, that reduce, reduce, reduce and then all collect and go into a slight megaphone...absolute best scavenging you can do, along with heat control. I couldn't agree with anymore. You are 100% correct.
I don't have much info on the K&N series LS motors, but I bet they are doing a lot of this...
I think if we just take the fact that these heads are designed around the SB2.2/RO7 heads, why don't we use the same exhaust systems and similar cams? The aftermarket is able to do exactly this, however in OEM performance the cost would substantial.
A SB2.2 cam runs a differential of 6 degrees between the two profiles. So, running a tighter LSA and less differential in/ex duration coupled with VVT, will put the power in a more controllable range and let the heads do the work...since they support over 600hp in OEM form. I realize lift to is important, but start with some baseline and tweak lift and LSA. Slightly more complicated than that. However the technology does exist in the aftermarket to really make the VVT scene come alive. However there are two developments lacking.
Also, the exhuast systems available on ebay for nascar engines are all the same...super high quality SS, long tubes, that reduce, reduce, reduce and then all collect and go into a slight megaphone...absolute best scavenging you can do, along with heat control. I couldn't agree with anymore. You are 100% correct.
I don't have much info on the K&N series LS motors, but I bet they are doing a lot of this...
Bigg Gunz
12-16-2012, 03:38 PM
#488
talked to a friend and highly capable tuner says no fear, the tables for the DI and other things he's not seen before are in the ECM's in the '12 pickups. Caused him some tuning issues for a year but have since been resolved.. He is certain (like Diablo stated prior) they will be in the ECM plugging away in time. Cudos to GM for trying to keep us out lol
Also, why would GM put a "Z28" above a "ZL1"?? Can't see that happening... ZL1 designated the top dog no?
Also, why would GM put a "Z28" above a "ZL1"?? Can't see that happening... ZL1 designated the top dog no?
Last edited by TonyGXP; 12-16-2012 at 03:43 PM.
12-16-2012, 04:04 PM
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If the ZL1 was top dog shouldn't it be sporting the LS9? And not the detuned version LSA?
As for the ECM ...is a dead subject no need to keep pulling the wagon with no wheels. If the aftermarket is sure it can access it then, lets just agree to disagree to revisit the same subject is pointless.
Bigg Gunz
As for the ECM ...is a dead subject no need to keep pulling the wagon with no wheels. If the aftermarket is sure it can access it then, lets just agree to disagree to revisit the same subject is pointless.
Bigg Gunz
12-16-2012, 06:47 PM
#490
If the ZL1 was top dog shouldn't it be sporting the LS9? And not the detuned version LSA?
As for the ECM ...is a dead subject no need to keep pulling the wagon with no wheels. If the aftermarket is sure it can access it then, lets just agree to disagree to revisit the same subject is pointless.
Bigg Gunz
As for the ECM ...is a dead subject no need to keep pulling the wagon with no wheels. If the aftermarket is sure it can access it then, lets just agree to disagree to revisit the same subject is pointless.
Bigg Gunz
most (true) enthusiasts here KNOW that the Z28 was the handling package (similar to an 1LE of later years), made for the road course and the SS was the street bruiser... the ZL1 was a mythical creature lol.... So all this talk of "Z28" being this high hp insane car is ridiculous (imo of course..)
thanks for your insight though. all of us appreciate you bringing this info to light..
12-16-2012, 07:35 PM
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you claim to be "all knowing" than you would know that there is no way Chevy would allow the ZR1's power plant to be in anything but the ZR1... It's a miracle it even got the LSA to begin with.. Comon man?
most (true) enthusiasts here KNOW that the Z28 was the handling package (similar to an 1LE of later years), made for the road course and the SS was the street bruiser... the ZL1 was a mythical creature lol.... So all this talk of "Z28" being this high hp insane car is ridiculous (imo of course..)
thanks for your insight though. all of us appreciate you bringing this info to light..
most (true) enthusiasts here KNOW that the Z28 was the handling package (similar to an 1LE of later years), made for the road course and the SS was the street bruiser... the ZL1 was a mythical creature lol.... So all this talk of "Z28" being this high hp insane car is ridiculous (imo of course..)
thanks for your insight though. all of us appreciate you bringing this info to light..
Who laid claim to know all? I am here answering questions about the 2014 LT1.... And where is the one single post in this thread where I've typed or mention the "Z28" specifically until this very this moment. Further more the 1969 ZL1 was more powerful than the L88 corvette and any other car at the time. Further more the LS9 is in a way in the ZL1 just a detuned version of the engine. Which is why I asked you that question....However if your talking in the sense of why is the ZL1 somehow overshadowed by a possible return of a future "z/28." Then maybe you should wait until its official announced accordingly. As I've haven't mentioned a Z/28. Just others within the thread....Further more the RPO "z28" and its birth had everything to do with the "302" ENGINE and then other upgrades including suspension but not limited to just suspension for road courses. And the "1LE' performance package wasn't available until 1989 that would be 20 years after the "z/28" was produced in 1969. And two full years after 1989 that the 1LE became synonymous with the z/28 RPO
Bigg Gunz
12-16-2012, 07:38 PM
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Every engine operates under equations analogous to Bernoulli's Principle. You may as well say they operate under Newton's Laws of Motion and the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Mass is conserved, total pressures are a sum of static and dynamic pressures, etc. - there's nothing special about the LT1 in that regard. The models are simply more fine-grained and the torque curve can be adjusted dynamically with variable timing of events.
I'm not saying it's easy and great tech is still great tech... just don't try to kid a kidder. The aero engineer who gave you the idea for your fuel pump isn't the only one in existence, just sayin'
I'm not saying it's easy and great tech is still great tech... just don't try to kid a kidder. The aero engineer who gave you the idea for your fuel pump isn't the only one in existence, just sayin'
12-16-2012, 07:48 PM
#493
Folks, as Mr. Bigg Gunz is obviously part of the GenV development team, we should keep this thread more GenV engine specific.
Whether any of you think he's on the money or not, he's shared with us some pretty in-depth info on the GenV. He (and GM) doesn't need to and we should consider it a gift that we're getting all this pre-production info. It's rarely been this way from any auto maker in the past.
Trying to discuss matters outside the engine here will just muddy up the thread. We all love the various builds of the '69 Camaro but let's concentrate on getting info from him about the GenV.
I for one would like to hear more about the truck versions of this engine. Whatcha got, Mr. Gunz?
Whether any of you think he's on the money or not, he's shared with us some pretty in-depth info on the GenV. He (and GM) doesn't need to and we should consider it a gift that we're getting all this pre-production info. It's rarely been this way from any auto maker in the past.
Trying to discuss matters outside the engine here will just muddy up the thread. We all love the various builds of the '69 Camaro but let's concentrate on getting info from him about the GenV.
I for one would like to hear more about the truck versions of this engine. Whatcha got, Mr. Gunz?
12-16-2012, 07:53 PM
#494
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Folks, as Mr. Bigg Gunz is obviously part of the GenV development team, we should keep this thread more GenV engine specific.
Whether any of you think he's on the money or not, he's shared with us some pretty in-depth info on the GenV. He (and GM) doesn't need to and we should consider it a gift that we're getting all this pre-production info. It's rarely been this way from any auto maker in the past.
Trying to discuss matters outside the engine here will just muddy up the thread. We all love the various builds of the '69 Camaro but let's concentrate on getting info from him about the GenV.
I for one would like to hear more about the truck versions of this engine. Whatcha got, Mr. Gunz?
Whether any of you think he's on the money or not, he's shared with us some pretty in-depth info on the GenV. He (and GM) doesn't need to and we should consider it a gift that we're getting all this pre-production info. It's rarely been this way from any auto maker in the past.
Trying to discuss matters outside the engine here will just muddy up the thread. We all love the various builds of the '69 Camaro but let's concentrate on getting info from him about the GenV.
I for one would like to hear more about the truck versions of this engine. Whatcha got, Mr. Gunz?
X2, on all counts!
12-16-2012, 08:11 PM
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Every engine operates under equations analogous to Bernoulli's Principle. You may as well say they operate under Newton's Laws of Motion and the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Mass is conserved, total pressures are a sum of static and dynamic pressures, etc. - there's nothing special about the LT1 in that regard. The models are simply more fine-grained and the torque curve can be adjusted dynamically with variable timing of events.
I'm not saying it's easy and great tech is still great tech... just don't try to kid a kidder. The aero engineer who gave you the idea for your fuel pump isn't the only one in existence, just sayin'
I'm not saying it's easy and great tech is still great tech... just don't try to kid a kidder. The aero engineer who gave you the idea for your fuel pump isn't the only one in existence, just sayin'
Completely incorrect...... And don't you try to kid me..... and FYI you should go back and read again how the tri lobe came to be in the 2014 LT1 as I was not responsible another engineer was I just decided to share the reason behind it and its function over a traditional design. Comprehension is everything when reading..... Now on to enlightenment about this Bernouilli Law and why it is different for this engine.
Static compression is directly from swept volume/space of the cylinder using stroke Top Dead Center then to Bottom Dead Center. Dynamic compression is using the position of the intake valves closing rather than Bottom Dead Center of the crank stroke to determine the sweep of the volume of each cylinder.
You're obviously confusing dynamic compression with static which should never be confused with cylinder pressure.
Cylinder pressures are constantly changing continuously due to many factors including RPM, intake manifold design, head port volume and efficiency, overlap, exhaust design, valve timing, throttle position, and about 15 other factors with in engine. Dynamic compression is formed from extremely accurate measured & calculated values that are the actual dimensions of the engine.
And UNLESS when variable Valve timing (VVT-CVVT-VVC) is being used, the Dynamic Compression, is fixed when the engine is blue printed and built and that never changes during the running of the engine. END of Discussion.
Bigg Gunz
Last edited by Bigg_Gunz; 12-16-2012 at 08:35 PM.
12-16-2012, 08:37 PM
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In the simplest install, say someone buys the crate+ECU. Dropping it in another car would require a custom air intake, header, cat, and cat back. At times the header and catback may be more restrictive than the LT1 implementation in an OEM car. Ie. consider a straight 4, or straight 6 car swapped to V8, where the pipes from one side are crossed over. Can the LT1 ECU adjust enough to make this work? Aka only the intake manifold would be OEM, and maybe the exhaust manifold but not much past that.
In addition you mentioned cam regrinds may not require ECU tuning. Is there a limit to the lobe profile? Would a GM Stage 3 cam that's fairly aggressive not require a tune?
Lastly, say forced induction route is preferred. Is there a way to make it work with the ECU?
I've extended my question a bit.
12-16-2012, 08:39 PM
#498
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Is the truck version of the 6.2 identical to the LT1 other than maybe differences in vvt tuning to focus on more low end, less top end? A cam difference maybe? I noticed the intake was different... longer runners for torque I'm assuming.
Any other elaborations on the truck engines vs the LT1 specifically would be appreciated.
Are we going to see price hikes in the vehicles with the new engines?
You gave the impression that the 450 hp 450 torque were conservative guesses at the LT1 output. Can we also assume the 26 mpg is also conservative?
Thanks for the replies.
Any other elaborations on the truck engines vs the LT1 specifically would be appreciated.
Are we going to see price hikes in the vehicles with the new engines?
You gave the impression that the 450 hp 450 torque were conservative guesses at the LT1 output. Can we also assume the 26 mpg is also conservative?
Thanks for the replies.
12-16-2012, 08:42 PM
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The question above made ponder... will GM itself be diving farther into the performance aftermarket with this gen V engine project? For example.. offering different stage performance packages, different cams, tunes, etc. It seems the previous attempts were only intake/catback exhaust, etc.
12-16-2012, 08:57 PM
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Completely incorrect...... And don't you try to kid me..... and FYI you should go back and read again how the tri lobe came to be in the 2014 LT1 as I was not responsible another engineer was I just decided to share the reason behind it and its function over a traditional design. Comprehension is everything when reading..... Now on to enlightenment about this Bernouilli Law and why it is different for this engine.
Static compression is directly from swept volume/space of the cylinder using stroke Top Dead Center then to Bottom Dead Center. Dynamic compression is using the position of the intake valves closing rather than Bottom Dead Center of the crank stroke to determine the sweep of the volume of each cylinder.
You're obviously confusing dynamic compression with static which should never be confused with cylinder pressure.
Cylinder pressures are constantly changing continuously due to many factors including RPM, intake manifold design, head port volume and efficiency, overlap, exhaust design, valve timing, throttle position, and about 15 other factors with in engine. Dynamic compression is formed from extremely accurate measured & calculated values that are the actual dimensions of the engine.
And makes it completely UNLESS when variable Valve timing (VVT-CVVT-VVC) is being used, the Dynamic Compression, is fixed when the engine is blue printed and built and that never changes during the running of the engine. END of Discussion.
Bigg Gunz
Static compression is directly from swept volume/space of the cylinder using stroke Top Dead Center then to Bottom Dead Center. Dynamic compression is using the position of the intake valves closing rather than Bottom Dead Center of the crank stroke to determine the sweep of the volume of each cylinder.
You're obviously confusing dynamic compression with static which should never be confused with cylinder pressure.
Cylinder pressures are constantly changing continuously due to many factors including RPM, intake manifold design, head port volume and efficiency, overlap, exhaust design, valve timing, throttle position, and about 15 other factors with in engine. Dynamic compression is formed from extremely accurate measured & calculated values that are the actual dimensions of the engine.
And makes it completely UNLESS when variable Valve timing (VVT-CVVT-VVC) is being used, the Dynamic Compression, is fixed when the engine is blue printed and built and that never changes during the running of the engine. END of Discussion.
Bigg Gunz
All of us appreciate the information brought forth to date but I doubt any of us appreciate being talked down to. "END of Discussion" is simply rude and speaks poorly for you and your employer. I've slung a few lines of NASTRAN in my day and it was many moons before GM decided that CFD was cool. I'm certain there are other practicing engineers reading this thread so let's try to keep this conversation on the level, please.
Now, if we're done sniffing each other out, can you please unravel the statement, "And makes it completely UNLESS when variable Valve timing (VVT-CVVT-VVC) is being used, the Dynamic Compression, is fixed when the engine is blue printed and built and that never changes during the running of the engine."? I'm having trouble making sense of that.